Feet/Hand Maintenance while using VBL’s

[CARLOS C.]

Hi Everyone, I am now venturing more and more into winter trips and I will be using a Vapor Barrier Layer for my feet and hands. My question is what does everyone do to dry up and make sure your feet dry overnight and stay in tip top shape for the next day? I assume this could also be answered by those not utilizing a VBL that encounter a lot of moisture. My layering system is as follows: Feet :Thin coolmax liner sock>Ovenbag VBL> Thick Wigwam merino heavy layer sock>Vasque Snowburban insulated boot. Hands: Nitrile glove VBL> Thin synthetic glove (not sure on this but it is mostly for extra durability of the VBL)> OR P400 mitt> Slightly Larger fleece Mitt > Black Diamond Unlined shell Mitt. I just want to ensure that I don't get macerations and increase likely hood of blisters or do not fully dry out overnight. Any guidance is really appreciated.

[JP]

I used this setup: Cabelas Coolmax liner socks, Stephansons Warmlite VBL Socks, and Darn Tough wool socks mid calf height, and my boots were Steger Mukluks Yukon Jacks. I planned to use this setup for a week plus long solo trip into the BWCA for new years last year. This is what I got after 3 miles of use: Not the way I wanted to start a long winter trip into the BWCA. Found it difficult to do much around camp so The next day I headed home. I went back up to the BWCA a month later, minus the VBL socks and had the time of my life. Since this mistake of using VBL socks, I have come to the conclusion that our bodies need to breath.

[Roger Caffin]

A blister under your foot in that position is often a sign that your shoes were too narrow for your feet. Maybe the extra socks pushed the sizing beyond what your feet could handle? It might have been nothing to do with the VBl nature of the socks. Cheers

[Jim Colten]

@Carlos: When you go to bed take the VBL socks off and put on a pair that are only used when you are sleeping.

[JP]

Roger, I did the exact same setup after the blister trip, minus the VBL socks. I never felt that the boots were tight. If anything on the looser side. I have used that same setup (minus VBL's) in tighter upland hunting boots for years. Never developed a blister before.

[Anonymous]

I guess people use VBL socks to keep their foot insulation from wetting out? As far as foot insulation goes, i wonder why perforated EVA foam or the like isn't used more? Seems like it would solve most of the problem of why people use VBL's to being with. Breathable, non collapsible insulation.

[Ken Thompson]

Breathable vapor barrier. Did you just suggest that? http://andrewskurka.com/2012/minimizing-the-effects-and-aftermath-of-wet-feet/

[Jerry Adams]

I used bread bags on my feet once. For one day. Got pruned. I assume if I kept using it I'd get blisters. Seems like it's a solution to a non problem. WPB shoes and wool socks keep my feet a bit damp, but not enough to cause skin damage or cold or fungus I've used Stephenson fabric for a shirt/pants and it seemed heavy. Lighter and just as warm to use conventional clothing. The one case where VBL makes sense, like Skurka and others say, is for many days of much below freezing. Body vapor will accumulate in sleeping bag, freeze, reduce warmth and make it heavy.

[CARLOS C.]

From what I have been able to gather about VBL I understand that while the barrier prevents sweat from penetrating your insulation layers you should also be careful not to over insulate and cause extra sweating than the normal perspiration. I would imagine that with a VBL it would be better to have less insulation (within reason) because it will not be compromised thanks to the barrier. I wonder if you had too much insulation in addition to a crammed foot in order to cause what happened to you? I could be mistaken as I am new to this.So correct me if I am wrong. I know my setup is pretty simple and I have plenty of space to wiggle in with the liner/VBL/Insulation sock. My initial post was more so to better understand if there are special tricks or procedures outside of the norm in the evening since your feet do stay moist throughout the day. Thanks Jim. I may dab a little gold bond on to ensure I dry out completely.

[Anonymous]

"Breathable vapor barrier. Did you just suggest that?" Nope, i was suggesting instead of using a VBL, to instead use insulation that won't collapse or be adversely affected by moisture. After all, that's why VBL's are primarily used to begin with, because most insulation can collapse and/or overly absorb too much moisture, reducing it's thermal retention efficiency. While foam is sometimes used as insulation, i was suggesting a breathable form of foam instead. The outer layers of the foot wear should then be WPB or highly water resistant. Using perforated foam as insulation, would cut down on the need to have more highly waterproof outer some. Two birds with one stone. Keeps foot warm and dry, all without wrapping it with a non breathable suffocating layer. However, don't think that EVA foam is sold in perforated forms. I made some over mitts with perforated EVA foam, but i had to use my sewing machine to make the perforations. Probably not the ideal size–likely too large.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi JP In that case, odd. I have never heard of VBL socks causing those sorts of blisters before though. Dunno. Cheers

[Anonymous]

The mitt i was referring in my previous post. The execution could have been better: http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=97756

[Jim Colten]

Jerry said: The one case where VBL makes sense, like Skurka and others say, is for many days of much below freezing. Body vapor will accumulate in sleeping bag, freeze, reduce warmth and make it heavy. Absolutely! I would not and do not use VBL above or close to freezing … about 25F tops. My own experience has been with feet and hands plus a tiny bit of VBL shirt testing. I found a shirt to be tough to manage … Skurka has said that he consciously evaluates clothing warmth every 15-20 minutes when using VBL on his core. Carlos said: I would imagine that with a VBL it would be better to have less insulation (within reason) because it will not be compromised thanks to the barrier. Yes! In fact you will be somewhat warmer from the start as well as warmer later. If you are warm enough before you start moving then you are over dressed I can't explain JP's experience … BWCAW temps around New Year 2015 were definitely cold enough for VBL. Steger's Yukon Jack's are VERY warm and liner/VBL/wool socks/Mukluks would a be lot warmer than I'd prefer when on the move. But that kind of damage in three hours? … I dunno … hasn't happened to me. Jerry mentioned moisture weight gain in a sleeping bag. That'll definitely happen. The bags used on the 1986 Steger North Pole Expedition gained about 40lbs of ice weight. Two years later Steger's Antarctic crew used vapor barrier liners to great benefit. I've never been out for more than a couple winter nights at a time and haven't worried about that. Times I have slept in waterproof "containers" I was miserably warm and damp … I suspect that it's all about managing insulation.

[Jerry Adams]

"1986 Steger North Pole Expedition gained about 40lbs of ice weight" Stephenson Warmlite talks about that, thus their sleeping bags Those of you BPLers doing polar expeditions, use VB, otherwise, don't worry about it Good example of how a product good for some extreme condition isn't good for regular use. "VB is good for polar expeditions, therefore you should use it too". or Everest expeditions is another one.

[Anonymous]

"Those of you BPLers doing polar expeditions, use VB, otherwise, don't worry about it" A wee bit over simplified wouldn't yah say? I would use a sleeping VBL if i was going to Michigan or the like for a couple weeks during one of those polar vortexes that seemed to happen a fair amount last winter. I think once you are approaching, and below negative F* temps, VBL makes sense, at least for sleeping and hands. I've always been a little iffy about use for feet while active. Didn't Cascade Craftworks (Nathan M's company) at one point have a material that had a IR reflective layer, with a coating on it that was just thin enough to allow it to reflect human range IR pretty well? It wasn't the aluminized cuben fiber. Anyone remember the name of the other stuff? I would like to get some of it for the above purpose. I figure putting little foam dots/circles on it placed strategically would help to get the necessary air space for more efficient IR reflecting.

[Kevin Buggie]

I think VBL has a good roll to play in less than artic conditions when you don't want to sweat-out your boot liners/insulation during day activities near freezing. I use neoprene socks over a very thin wool liner so my boots stay dry on the inside and thus don't turn into blocks of ice during the 0 to 10F night lows. I could do the same for hands but I find it easier to carry multiple gloves for camp vs active (2 pairs) and switch gloves depending on conditions to avoid sweating out the insulation. The sleeping bag liner VBL I made has been really warm in backyard testing ( Down to -5F) but way to much hassle regulating temp and entry/exit dress/undress for me to bother using in the backcountry. Edit to add: My feet never get really prunny in the wool/neo VBL while skiing all day (never blisters like the OP) I air out my feet at camp beforeally changing into mid-weight wool socks inside goosefoot down booties for camp and in bed. Then back to the damp wool liner and neoprene VBL the next morning for more ski touring. I'm guessing the OP's blister issue arose from how the VBL system fit in the (oversized?) boots anD is not typical of VBL users.

[Jerry Adams]

" "Those of you BPLers doing polar expeditions, use VB, otherwise, don't worry about it" A wee bit over simplified wouldn't yah say? " yeah, I'm getting the hang of posting things on the internet wouldn't you say??? maybe I could throw in a "you idiot" or something???

[Anonymous]

I don't think you are anywhere close to being an idiot Jerry, nor was i trying to imply that. Just seemed like an over simplified or extreme statement. Geesh, not only have recent CME's and geomagnetic storms been frying transformers and knocking out some airline radar, but apparently affecting people's moods adversely too?

[Jerry Adams]

that's not what I meant. Sarcasm and subtleness are dangerous : ) I meant that if I said anyone that uses VB is an idiot, then I would fit in to the internet culture better, insulting each other, over simplifying,… A good thing about BPL is there is a diversity of opinions. People should try different things and see what works for them. I'm skeptical of VB for most cases, but that's just one opinion. I don't think people should not try it just because I said it. And I'm not trying to convince people or win an argument. Except believing in right wing wacko political ideas (oops, there I go again, being sarcastic or subtle or whatever. I think people should make up their own minds. I trust our political system to make the correct decisions. Yeah, the pendulum swings one way or another, but eventually it swings back)

[Anonymous]

Ok, thanks for the explanation.

[David Chenault]

I've never had my feet prune up using VBL socks in winter (which I always do in temps below 20F). I just change into dry sleep socks each night. My feet have always stopped sweating once the humidity gets to a certain point. Some peoples feet seem to not do this, and VBLs don't seem to work for them.

[Jerry Adams]

my feet pruned up wearing plastic bag next to skin. If I had worn thin socks underneath, maybe it would have been better but, then I'd be wearing thin socks, VBL, outer socks – starts adding some weight. better to just wear the outer socks and WPB shoes?

[Eric Blumensaadt]

Once again I recommend thin neoprene closed-cell diver's socks for your VBL. >Wear thin polypro liner socks under them. >Change the liner socks NIGHTLY. >The divers socks need to be seam sealed unless you buy US Diver's brand, which are already seam sealed. >These neoprene socks are VERY warm and therefore you do not wear any heavy socks, just the polypro liners. >In decades of using diver's socks as VBLs I have never had a blister.

[Andy F]

Just wearing dry socks to bed without any VBL is enough to keep your feet healthy. I've used Thorlos polypro and polyester liner socks with VBL without issues, including inside Steger mukluk liners (inside an non-breathable rubber boot "mukluk"). The thinner and smoother the better. Maybe the Coolmax ones are a bit more abrasive than most? There was plenty of perspiration in the VBL. I haven't used VBL on my hands because it's easy to dry glove liners inside my jacket during the day, swapping out with my spare pair. And, when I need to remove a glove to tie or undo a knot or something like that, I almost always need a bare hand. Using a VBL (AMK SOL reflective bivy) in my 0F bag at 10F was like camping in a humid jungle at 98.6F. :)

[Andy F]

A related thought: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIXvVemgEKA

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