Feet/Hand Maintenance while using VBL’s

[CARLOS C.]

I believe the above is in very very cold weather. I doubt it will get that cold ever in the Mid Atlantic.

[JP]

Andy said: "Maybe the Coolmax ones are a bit more abrasive than most?" I have been using the same same pair of cool max liners in my upland hunting boots (Irish Setters) along with a pair of Filson wool socks for 10 years with no problem. Before I used the Cabelas Coolmax liners hunting, I would get blisters on my heel near or below the Achilles' tendon. So I don't think the liners contributed to the blistering using VBL's. Actually the Cabelas Coolmax liners become sweat stuck to my feet, otherwise not moving around. "JP: Mukluks were made to breathe, as you discovered. :)" So are the running shoes people use VBL's with. The Mukluks were not too hot by any means. I feel the Coolmax liners did help for a short period, but when you have all that moisture that has no where to go, things start to pruin up and there starts the problem. Like I said earlier, I did a trip a month later with the same setup (minus VBL) and had no problem. Since I'm hauling a pulk or toboggan now, I just bring an extra set of Mukluk liners. The biggest thing I learned was to not listen too much to strange ideas that come from BPL. Our bodies are meant to breath, not meant to hold moisture all day.

[Jim Colten]

I stepped away from this thread when I started to sense myself wanting to slide into p*ssing match mode. That has passed, so …. JP clearly has had unsatisfactory experiences with VBL footwear. My only quibble with him is that he seems to be implying that this is a one size fits all thing when he say's "Our bodies are meant to breath" I didn't learn about VBL from BPL or even from Stephenson's Warmlite My father had an outside job in MN and could not afford to miss income every day the temp got below zero. He used breadbag VBL on his feet for 9 hours a day a majority of the January days for most of his working life. I thought that was nuts … until one morning when I woke up to boots and socks so stiff from frozen perspiration that I could not get them on my feet! I thawed them out over a steaming pot of oatmeal, lucky for me I had not yet discovered freezer bag cooking:-) So I started experimenting with VBL on my hands and feet on day outings and while I found the wet feeling to be unpleasant I was able to used to it. I really like that VBL handwear let's me get by with much less bulky gloves or mitts, which makes it easier to handle small things. Pls note that I'm not advocating wearing the VBL 24 hrs a day. Does my dad's and my experience invalidate JP's? Not at all. But folks wanting to be outdoors for multiple days at temps well below freezing might well benefit from trying VBL. But DO experiment in advance on a few all day outings in cold weather to discover how well your body does or does not handle the experience.

[Jim Colten]

I doubt it will get that cold ever in the Mid Atlantic. Carlos, if that is the weather you were thinking of when you started this thread then my answer would be "No, you will not benefit from VBL". Quite the contrary, in fact.

[Jerry Adams]

"That has passed, so …." that's funny : ) "until one morning when I woke up to boots and socks so stiff from frozen perspiration that I could not get them on my feet!" when you take your boots off, open them up really good, so when they freeze, they'll be enough room to get your feet in wear socks in sleeping bag, assuming they're not real wet, in which case it will wet out down you're right, HYOH, your mileage may vary,… There are a bunch of ideas here and elsewhere. Try things out and use what works. Everyone is different and hikes in different conditions.

[Jim Colten]

when you take your boots off, open them up really good, so when they freeze, they'll be enough room to get your feet in That does indeed work. But even though I seem to tolerate cold weather discomfort much better than almost everyone I've met I still do not relish the melting ice using body heat morning experience, preferring instead the clammy warm all day alternative:-)

[CARLOS C.]

"Carlos, if that is the weather you were thinking of when you started this thread then my answer would be "No, you will not benefit from VBL". Quite the contrary, in fact." Jim I only plan on using it when it will not be getting above 20-25 during the day. So only if the weather is expected to get that cold. The upcoming trip I will be going on will be 3 days in the Canaan Valley in West Virginia. It is consistently below 20 during with there plus snow. From what I understood this is the threshold for getting benefit from this system unless I'm wrong. It will be more for keeping my socks and boots dry than for warmth.

[Jerry Adams]

"preferring instead the clammy warm all day alternative:-)" VBL or not, boots will get wet enough to freeze : )

[JP]

Jim, I don't understand the pissing match that you say is going on. Its one persons experience versus another. I'm going to let people know and see what happened to me, just like you add your experiences too. Only difference is I have pictures. BPL is not my only source for information, nor is Stehpanson Warmlite. BPL is where the idea for me originated. I probably did close to 30 hours of research on this subject before I made the decision to buy. I spent close to that same amount of time after the blisters (due to not being as mobile) trying to find out what went wrong. I have come up with no answer. Heck I even called Stephenson and RBH Designs and a local (you know him as Bear P.) and no one could give me a reason or solution. I read where others have had problems with VBL's too, so I know I'm not alone.

[Andy F]

Carlos, "I believe the above is in very very cold weather." Yes, that's correct. In the video, Kochanski (master wilderness skills instructor in Alberta, Canada) states that the effectiveness of the technique is proportional to the degree of cold. It works best in "dry cold" conditions, which are roughly defined as temps no higher than 5-20F, depending on the air moisture and who you're talking with. It still works in warmer weather, just not as well. The cold, dry air and snow dries socks faster. "I doubt it will get that cold ever in the Mid Atlantic." I'm a cold weather fan near the Mid Atlantic, and I track this closely. :) JP, "So are the running shoes people use VBL's with." My point was just that mukluks are made to keep feet warm in extreme cold without the use of a VBL. I think a VBL would still be useful for those who can tolerate it. See the clothing articles at wintertrekking.com and Garrett and Alexandra Conover's book A Snow Walker's Companion for more info if you're interested in learning about the multiple approaches.

[JP]

Andy, Mukluks do a very good job at just that, breathing. I was hoping that the VBL's would keep the liners dry. That worked, but at a consequence. Found it safer to carry an extra liner and or extra socks. I have been spending a lot, very lot of time over at wintertrekking.com since spring. Glen Hooper's videos have been help. It really sucked spending multiple days waking up in a Shangri La 5 with walls of frost inches from my face trying to mess with a titanium cylinder stove. Since spring I have acquired a Snowtrekker Base camp and a titanium box stove. Nothing like going out for the day to come back to a spacious tent that I can stand up in and move freely. One of the benefits of sleds. I have been interested in the Alexandra Conover's book A Snow Walker's Companion, but for the price it'll have to wait for another time. But its on the list.

[Andy F]

Nice winter setup, JP! It sounds like we're on the same (web)page after all. :)

[Dave @ Oware]

As an experiment, I wore neoprene VLB socks for a month long trip in the Sierra Nevada one summer. No liner, just leather boots and the VLB's. I had no trouble with blisters. The boots were well broken in. I have had trouble with blisters from loose fitting felt lined boots tho.

[Kevin Buggie]

I'm with David and Jerry on this one. The OP's (JP) issue seems to be a boot fit problem when using his VBL system. Let's not conflate and confuse the issue by proclaiming VBL is a weird BPL thing that doesn't work and leads to blisters. That may have been JP's experience, ONCE, but a bunch of us have used the "BPL" VBL systems for many many days in the backcountry without any blister issues. The best 'research' is to get out there again and again, not 30 hours on the Web ;)

[Jim Colten]

@JP: The only p*ssing match I was talking about was the one I felt rising in my own head upon reading one post … a signal for me to get away from the keyboard and go for a walk:-) Regarding others diagnosing JP's feet … there is almost never a one size fits all answer to any outdoor clothing/gear and I, for one, try hard to not diagnose another's experience via the internet … I'll suggest possibilities, sure … but not beyond that.

[CARLOS C.]

@Andy F You are right we can get cold aka subzero on occasion but I feel like us having sustained subzero temperatures is uncommon. I know the Canaan Valley has ever changing conditions so it is hard to plan for it.

[JP]

Kevin said: "I'm with David and Jerry on this one. The OP's (JP) issue seems to be a boot fit problem when using his VBL system." -The boots fit perfect, no over sizing was done when purchased. I wear a normal size 10.5 and the Mukluks which run in whole sizes are 11's. When I said earlier they were on the looser side, I didn't mean they were sloppy. Just not too snug where I can't use a thicker sock or another lightweight sock if needed. I think the sizing has proven not to be an issue with the 100 miles I have put on them before and after the blister incident. The variable is that I didn't have the VBL's on, nor a liner sock. But the liner sock which is closer to a silk weight or guessing similar in thickness to pantyhose, has eliminated the issue I had 10 years ago upland hunting an to this day. "Let's not conflate and confuse the issue by proclaiming VBL is a weird BPL thing that doesn't work and leads to blisters. That may have been JP's experience, ONCE, but a bunch of us have used the "BPL" VBL systems for many many days in the backcountry without any blister issues." -Kevin, I'm not the only person out there who has had blisters from VBL's. I have read other peoples reviews where they did have problems too. I am not just a one off. If you used them once for three miles and follow the correct layering process that's out there and leads to nasty blisters how many times would you risk it again before you say screw this idea? I have been out thousands a of times before I tried VBL's with not a single problem similar to this. Sure I have had blisters before, more so in full leather boots, but those develop over days. That's a lot different than 3 miles across a lake. "The best 'research' is to get out there again and again, not 30 hours on the Web :). My goal was to only go in 3 miles across Snowbank Lake the first day, and then go farther the next day to get to some more private ice fishing lakes. I figured it being only 3 miles the first day would be a good way to see how well this works. The only conclusion I can come up with is some people have different skin than others or they sweat differently. I know I sweat more than others, and possibly my body doesn't stop sweating as quickly as others leading to the development of blisters. I was given a medical discharged from the Navy for severe eczema that was on about 90% of my body, cracking and bleeding, so maybe I do have sensitive skin and that's the problem. This was caused from either the detergents that the Navy uses or being sweaty all day and not being able to dry off. That happened 15 years ago, and I have not had anything similar to that since. I can see your guys argument too. If I had the same experiences as you guys, I too would have the same stance. I was really hoping these would work to save on extra socks, but unfortunately it didn't. Bummer for me. I want to let people know what happened to me so they can be more informed before making the decision to use VBL's. Hopefully they will work for you, but know the risks.

[Matt Dirksen]

Thanks for sharing your experience, JP. I'd like to offer some speculation based on my own experiences: 1) Over the past few years (since I crossed over 40), I've occasionally noticed that when I go on a hike, both my feet and calves might start swelling. I suspect it might be due to the temperature, the relative humidity, how much I am exerting, what I ate the day before, how long it's been since I've done something aerobic, or all of the above. 2) Given that a VBP system (by design), is intended to contain all the foot's moisture, I would guess that while using this system (and based on my recent swelling experiences) my feet would both expand, and get "pruney", as some have described. It is important for me to remember that some folks may not experience this phenomena to the degree that I do, and vice versa. The last time I actually used a VBL was over 20 years ago, and remember the sweating, but don't remember the swelling. 3) I also believe that a single layer of hydrophillic sock liner would wet out rather quickly, causing my feet to slip around more than in a normal "breathable" system. Therefore, I can easily imagine how "perfectly fitting" boots might contribute to an "imperfect system", in this particular case. In other words, I suspect that if I were to hone in on my footwear selection, I actually might require a different pair of boots, simply due to the risk of how much my feet might swell when subjected to 100% humidity. A pair of boots that might infact be too large when not wearing a VBL system. And to mitigate the slippage, I might double or triple up on the sock liners. The neoprene might be cool to try out, since I don't believe it's a true VBL (I think neoprene is a class II vapor retarder, not class I). I believe it is important to hear about experiences such as yours so I can be better informed about the benefits and risks of VBL usage in cold weather, especially since I might be in a life/death situation if not properly prepared. Folks that use VBL's in cold/dry/high air pressure situations may have totally different experiences and recommendations than folks that try to use them in cold/humid/low pressure situations. Vapor transport is a funny and complicated thing, and a bit of an enigma to most of us in the outdoor equipment world, in my opinion. Sharing personal experiences is great, but creating sweeping generalizations due to my experience or simply talking about what (dry bulb) temperature to use VBL's at while not considering all the other variables can be a risky proposition.

[Anonymous]

Well said Matt. Reality and truth is often more relative, complex, and variable than we tend to give it credit.

[Taiga]

The Conovers and others have an external heat source every day which dries out their built up moisture. They use heavy canvas tents and wood stoves.

[Anonymous]

Yeah my  thinking was inline with Jerry. I’ve used VBL around -30 F (after reading Andy’s article). I would think 25F would be to warm (too much sweat). But I could open to experimenting in the 0-15 range if you guys say it helps.

The recent Muru documentary had a relevant segment to this topic. When they got back from the one attempt, I think they had been climbing & sleeping in their VBLs, (maybe even their insulated boots). They reported both trenchfoot and frostbite. The one video clip when they got back to town was pretty gnarly. Looked like the skin between his toes started to grow together… Yucky. For people who didn’t see the movie I think they were between 14k-20k altitude in Nepal for a month.

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