Solution/Fix to a Paramo type WPB systems?

For comparison I usually just wear my R2 and a wind pro hat below 50 if there is light rain and misting because the R2 is enough along with my body heat while walking to keep it on the outside. If it was to rain more or harder I would put on the the Crest Hoody

agreed- in the right conditions; take today for example- it was misting pretty steady for a couple of hours on my run- my body heat was enough to rid my base top of almost all moisture (as long as I kept moving :)) 300-400 HH isn't all that high, considering most of the rain jackets we're familiar with are 10,000+

question- Paramo treats their fleece to have some water repellency (in addition to the outer layer)- would it be worth considering treating the fleece garment chosen? nikwax or something else?

"question- Paramo treats their fleece to have some water repellency (in addition to the outer layer)- would it be worth considering treating the fleece garment chosen? nikwax or something else?" This is why I was recommending one of those polypropylene military base layers to use as the pump liner, mid layer. No need for DWR. That combined with an EPIC windjacket would make the entire system very convenient/hassle free as regards the DWR issue.

maybe any combination of fleece and water repellent shell would work fairly good small improvement with the perfect fleece or shell, not that small improvements aren't good if the shell gets wet, then you don't want the outside surface of the fleece inner to absorb. Then, the water will tend to run down the shell, and drip onto the ground marketing people will want a more complicated story to sell people on it, not that marketing isn't good, if people don't buy your product you'll go out of business

are the polypro pieces part of the PCU setup? I know earlier on the military was using some base layers from Patagonia (maybe still are?), is polypro still in their (military) inventory or is that their older stuff? looking at fleece garments, there are a couple that got my attention- it’s a Polartec High Loft grid- Rab makes one- the Firebrand, Northface Radium- might be others, but the loft is outward and it’s gridded (should be more breathable) jerry- agree- even a small improvement in water resistance would help here’s a pic of the high loft grid, a hood version would be better yet, not sure if anyone makes one though

Hey Mike, The new Patagonia R3 is a high loft grid fleece. There is a hoody version but it may only be the women's. Edit: I don't know why I didn't just look it up first. There is a men's R3 hoody in high loft grid.

Sam- thanks- looked it up and they do indeed make a R3 hooded version, the material is pretty heavy though (8.9 oz/ yd)- would like to find something lighter for a mid-layer- the other makers don't list fabric weight, so not sure if they are lighter or not (the garment is lighter, but that could be lack of hood and other features????) Mike

Mountain Hardwear makes the Monkey Man Jacket in a hooded high loft grid fleece version. R1 on steroids :) http://www.rei.com/product/886240/mountain-hardwear-monkey-man-grid-fleece-jacket-mens-2014-closeout?cm_mmc=cse_PLA_GOOG-_-8862400002&CAWELAID=120217890000786106&lsft=cm_mmc:cse_PLA_GOOG

The R3 hoody is definitely heavy. I think it has a lot to do with all the useless features they put into it so it looks good at the grocery store and bar. The Pata website says the fabric is proprietary to them, but I'm sure it or something similar is used by someone else. Strip the features to maybe one chest pocket, and eliminate the reversible aspect, and it may be a viable option for cold, wet weather. Too bad Pata made it "outdoorsy chic" instead of backcountry functional.

You call that high loft??? Check this out. 14 ounces in medium for 300 weight thermal pro with a hand warmer pocket: http://melanzana.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/38/products_id/68

^ Justin- that's too high loft :) I'd like to find something in a "100-ish" weight garment with the loft on the outer portion of the fabric the MH looks good, it looks like it's "200-ish" weight as near as I can tell (sure do like it when companies publish the fabric weight!)

I have a hoodless model MH Monkey Man Grid Fleece Jacket that is 15.6oz in XL size. The mesh pocket liners go far up the front and has Power Stretch-like side panels. My R1 XL hoodie is 13.2oz for comparison.

Yeah, that thing is pretty warm. My reply was in regards to the R3, I think the melanzana is superior to the R3. I own a monkey man grid hood fleece and I have mixed feelings about it. I don't like the stretch side panels, they seem to absorb more water and feel colder when wet. I also don't like the fit of the hood. And they come with huge mesh pockets that also seem to absorb lots of water and feel cold. Now with the paramo system, for shoulder season weather I'm always carrying a windshirt and midlayer, so if I can turn those into a paramo type system then I have more utility at the same weight. And I will also have a rain jacket on me if the rain gets real heavy.

I think may try my R1 inside out first and see how that moves moisture- it definitely puts more loft to the exterior side that way

"are the polypro pieces part of the PCU setup? I know earlier on the military was using some base layers from Patagonia (maybe still are?), is polypro still in their (military) inventory or is that their older stuff?" They use to be, but the military switched over to polyester some years back because it handles heat and sparks a bit better than polypropylene (it's possible that stink was also a factor, but that would be conjecture on my part). The manufacturers selling to the military, must have made a lot extra of them, because you can find them at a lot of military surplus type stores for fairly cheap. This is the one i have below. You can find it cheaper than this though. It's a little heavier than it could be, because there's extra material in the high collar, cuffs, and the zipper isn't light. If you get one of the crewneck type ones, should be at least a few ounces lighter. The one i have with a high collar, 1/4 zip, etc (like below) i think weighs around 11 oz for large (i mostly wear medium, but sized up to be able to fit other layers beneath), if i remember correctly. I would guesstimate the crewneck ones to weigh around 7 oz for a size medium. Polypropylene is about 40% lighter than polyester per same volume of material. http://www.armysurplusworld.com/product.asp?ProductID=971 Again, the problem would be the lack of a hood. But someone with MYOG skills could easily get around that, by buying an extra shirt, and using the fabric to make a hood and sewing it on. Or, like i said before, switch to a WPB hat instead. As an aside (and not related to any of this thread): polypropylene and ultra high molecular weight polyethylene (dyneema, spectra, etc) have a very similar density, but of course the latter is much more durable and stronger. Because it's so light, strong, and durable, i have hopes that eventually (as costs come down and methods of making smaller fibers improve), it may be used to create new synthetic fill that will rival Goose Down as far as warmth per weight and durability. With the added benefit of being super hydrophobic naturally, because like polypropylene, UHMW polyethylene absorbs almost no water. Think about it, most synthetic insulation is made with polyester, which again is about 40% heavier per given volume, and UHMW PE is much stronger and more durable, and more innately hydrophobic than polyester. If you can get the fibers small enough, and shaped well to trap/still more air, then you potentially have quite an amazingly performing synthetic insulation. Picture combining primarily long, continuous staple UHMW PE fiber insulation (like Apex, but made with the former), with loose fill fibers made out of the same material. Might possibly rival Down on most of the major areas, though even then i don't think it would pack down as much as high quality Down (especially if you do continuous staple insulation).

Any idea if the UHMW PE in synth puffy form would be more or less durable to loss of loft?

Stephen, How is sizing on the Paramo gear? Should I size up from a US Large to an XL? Even though I'm a 41R US suit, I tend to buy everything for a size 42, and in EU gear I have to get an XL (for ME, Montane and Berghaus). Thanks for the input. Eric

Hi Eric, For me the sizing is true to size. My Valez adventure light top and Cascada trousers are both Large, I normally take a Large in Mountain Hardwear and Patagonia.

Thanks Stephen.

Anyone try the aforementioned inside out R1 or Cap4? The MH Monkey Grid is very pricey for a fleece and slow to dry stretch panels defeat the purpose, and seems way to warm for being active. Any thoughts on the Melanzana Micro Grid hoody?

I had the perfect opportunity today, but wore my Cap 4 the "right" way :( the Melanzana has no zipped front- imo you need a full zip or a very deep pullover zip to dump heat when needed if (if) I could design the perfect fleece for this type of setup I would use a fabric like the high loft polartec grid, but in a lighter weight- 100-ish weight; it would be a pullover and it would have a very deep zip (Cap 4) and a nice fitting hood I might well be describing the Cap 4 inside out????????

"the Melanzana has no zipped front- imo you need a full zip or a very deep pullover zip to dump heat when needed" I've added about 6 12" zips to various garments lacking this critical detail. Inexpensive and easy to do as a MYOG, or by a local. The hardest part is getting a good color match. YMMV

How about this as a midlayer: here

Hi Darylx2, that would absorb a lot of moisture, though if you treated it with a DWR wash in, it would help mitigate that.