Lightest & Best 3 Layer Rain Jacket?

In the conditions you’re describing you really should include The Packa in your list. He offers silnylon, eVent, or cuben options, depending on how much you want to spend.

The biggest advantage is that your pack is always completely covered so nothing inside it gets wet. I’ve had packs gain a fair amount of water weight (even with a pack cover). The pit zips are huge and really help regulate your internal temperature along with providing some much-needed ventilation.

I've been super impressed so far with its ability to breathe and wick away sweat compared to regular PU coated fabrics, but I haven't had it long enough to talk about durability at all.

Check out the zpack cuben/e-vent rain jacket. Very light. Its what I would get right now if I was in the market for a backcountry rain jacket. Not something that would look good around town, but in the woods, who cares. Paired with rain gaitors or kilt… seems like a good system, and very light.

> I'm assuming a 3 layer waterproof breathable jacket is best for heavy rain conditions
> like in the Pacific Northwest. Probably Gortex or eVent, I expect.
Several mighty big assumptions there.
Many people would disagree with all of them.
In reality, there ain't no such animal as a perfect jacket. that's why there are som many competing imprfect jackets on the market.

Very possibly, you should be looking at a poncho instead.

Cheers

I think 3 layer will last longer than 2.5 layer

The inner (third) layer absorbs body oil and stuff

With a 2.5 layer jacket, which is a good bit lighter weight, it absorbs sweat and body oil and then starts delaminating

At least that's my experience.

I pretty much rule out ponchos for several reasons:
1) You get wet if it's windy (and don't like it flopping around in the wind)
2) If your scrambling on talus or climbing you step on it or it snags on something.
3) In brush it snags on things
4) Never could figure out how to put it on if I'm solo… how could I get it over a pack that's already on my back?

billy

I'm assuming all the light weight ones are not reliable in heavy rain with the weight of backpack straps working on the shoulder sections. That's been my experience so far with one in the 7oz range… and many others here on BPL have complained of the same thing.

b

My Rab Momentum (I think replaced w/ the Muztag) is a 3 layer eVENT jacket ~ 12 oz, not much for bells/whistles, but it's the jacket I grab when I'm pretty sure it's going to be raining; I have a Pertex + 2.5 jacket (Helium II) that weighs almost half that I pack when I'm pretty sure it's not going to rain

I find eVENT breathes better than both Gortex or Pertex, not miraculously better, but better

If you are in the market for a light 3 layer jacket, I would look into the Patagonia M10 at 8.1oz, which is a well regarded minimalist jacket or the Mont-Bell Peak Shell which is a more feature laden jacket at a still light 9.1oz.

The REI Event Kimtah is pretty good by all accounts. I have an older Montbell Peak and it has been good to me.

REI Kimtah on sale here:

http://www.rei.com/product/858705/rei-kimtah-rain-jacket-mens

EDIT The Kimtah is probably too heavy for BPLers, so Luke's Ultralight makes a 3 layer event at 8.5 oz

http://lukesultralite.com/products/raingear

I have 4 event jackets and it all depends on the outer layer as to how breathable it is.
I have a thicker layer nylon outer on 1 and I wet out very easily.
My favorite has a very thin outer shell and you can fell the wind blow through the jack with the lightest gusts,

Okay… so I just got a permit from Rainier NP to do the Northern Loop. Being a virtual 'native' of the Sierra I haven't taken my rain jackets all that seriously. But I'm motivated now with the permit and the understanding that it really does rain in the PNW. So… more suggestions please… dependable water proof, not wetting out during a full day/week of rain.

thanks,
Billy

Billy Ray said he doesn't like ponchos for four reasons, to which I feel sort of an OCD necessity to reply … :-)

1) You get wet if it's windy (and don't like it flopping around in the wind)

When I use a poncho I use a sort of stretchy cord belt to help keep it in place. It doesn't flap a lot more for me than does, say, a rain skirt.

2) If your scrambling on talus or climbing you step on it or it snags on something.

Acknowledged, and ditto if you're bushwhacking, a poncho isn't the ideal piece of kit. Most of the time I'm not doing that, but certainly we adjust our equipment choices to the specific trip.

3) In brush it snags on things

I think points 2 & 3 are essentially the same thing, no?

4) Never could figure out how to put it on if I'm solo… how could I get it over a pack that's already on my back?

Interesting; never been a problem for me, and in fact, one of the advantages. When I use a poncho I typically carry it in the side mesh of my pack, and (depending on which pack) I can usually reach back and grab it and put it on while I continue to hike.

I think you're talking about not being able to get the back portion to fully cover the back of your backpack. I admit that I've helped others to get their poncho "completely on", and perhaps have even accepted help with this myself, but I've used a poncho plenty of times in solo hiking situations and don't ever recall a serious problem. Maybe it's based on the geometry of pack, poncho, and personal body shape/size, so I'm not discounting your experience (!), just hasn't been a problem for me.

There are, however, issues with a poncho that you didn't mention, so if I may add:

5) Can't easily access stuff on pack straps and waist belt with a poncho on. In particular, I keep my smartphone on a pack strap and am occasionally annoyed if I want to use it as camera or GPS or voice recorder or whatever.
6) No sleeves; this can be a little cold at times. One can buy tyvek sleeves or the sort of sleeve-only thing that bikers wear, but it's sort of a PITA.
7) The shelter conundrum. It can be confusing to decide whether your raingear is adequate shelter for a given trip. This is of course actually a benefit of a poncho: that it can double as a sort of minimal tarp. But it IS pretty minimal. One of the times I love to bring a poncho (or a Gatewood Cape) is trips where I don't expect a lot of wet weather, so I can combine the weight of shelter and rain gear in one item. This can also be good for day hikes as a more credible shelter portion of your "ten-plus essentials".

I also have a Packa; I bought mine from Cedar Tree himself when I was hiking the AT. I live in the PNW, so it seemed to make sense, and I enjoyed it on the AT. But in fact, I don't find myself using it much. I think it's a fantastic piece of gear when conditions call for it, but it's relatively heavy. My other rain gear is lighter. Given that a person typically doesn't intentionally set out to hike in day after day of rain, it doesn't get a lot of use. Maybe if I had a cuben version or something …
Also, the times when I do know that I'll be likely to be in wet weather I often have snow shoes and/or ice axe along, neither of which play well with a Packa (hard to strap those on to the pack …). So while I love the idea, I'm pragmatically less of a fan now than I used to be.

As someone else said, IMO there's no perfect piece of rain (or any other) gear. There are some "pretty darned perfect" options for specific conditions. One excuse some of us use for having so much gear is that it gives us a bigger range of choices to better tune our gear to specific trips. That is of course at least to some degree just an excuse to have more "cool stuff" …

I am interested in this thread because I feel that my hard shell is way too heavy. This page is posting a weight of 14.5 ounces which I think it is for the medium size but I have a large. http://www.backcountry.com/sierra-designs-n2-fusion-jacket-mens

I am wondering how a 8/10 ounces waterproof jacket will fare against mine in a tropical downpour situation where you get a lot of water in a short period of time. Have these lighter jackets a low were waterproof rating?

Listen to Brian, he is a Triple Crown hiker.

I have hiked all over the U.S. and in constant rain you are going to get soaked wearing a WPB jacket. It is going to wet out or you will get soaked from sweat. There is no way around it.

Brian also pointed out the deficiencies of a large poncho.

The past 4 years I have been using a zPacks Poncho/Groundsheet. It is not big and billowy. The Cuben material is slick and doesn’t catch on brush and cacti the way other materials do. It is more difficult to put on over a pack than a larger poncho, especially my largest pack, a McHale LBP 36. I probably couldn’t get it on if I had stuff strapped to the outside of the pack. I am 5’11” and weigh less than 160 lbs. if I was overweight it might not fit. I hike solo most of the time, so there is no one to help me put the poncho on.

The most popular post on my website is The Search For The Holy Grail: Waterproof Breathable Gear.

You can see the kind of weather the poncho did well in on a trip on The Buckeye Trail.

Here’s another on the Appalachian Trail.

On this desert trip there was a lot of cross country walking, brush, and scrambling up talus canyons. In difficult terrain my Cuben rains skirt was somewhat restrictive going up talus and I had to put a piece of tape over the Velcro at the bottom to allow the skirt to open further as I navigated large boulders.

Here is my short review of the zPacks poncho. I almost never use it as a ground sheet.

As stated, I have no interest in a poncho.
If you guys want to hijack this thread, I'll have to start a different one.
Not interested a wide ranging discussion of all possible rain gear choices; just asking for suggestions for 3 layer rain jackets. Basically, I am asking for something heavier than the 6 oz ultralight jacket I and others have found they leak in all-day rains which I am likely to encounter in the PNW.

"I am wondering how a 8/10 ounces waterproof jacket will fare against mine in a tropical downpour situation where you get a lot of water in a short period of time. Have these lighter jackets a low were waterproof rating?"

Yes. The lightweight 2 layer jackets leak in heavy rain, which is why I am asking for suggestions for the heavier, 3 layer rain jackets that actually keep you dry in heavy rain.

billy

Well Billy I think the reason you are getting these responses is because there IS NO jacket, no matter how heavy, that is going to keep you dry in heavy rain.

Those UL 6 oz jackets generally don't let water IN – they simply soak through the OUTER layer and then do not allow the fabric to breathe at all any longer (particularly in the shoulders, or under pressure from the shoulder straps). You are getting wet from sweat on the inside…THAT is why they feel like they are wetting through. The 2.5L (or possibly this new 6 oz 3-layer from Rab that I'm trying out) don't leak…they just stop wicking moisture faster than the 3 layers because there is nothing to protect that inner membrane from your body oils and sweat, etc – and then they delaminate.

So what you are getting are people's solutions to the problem of the fact that there IS NO jacket that will keep you totally dry in heavy rain.

If you want a jacket that will completely keep away the rain, get a rubber coat from Helly Hansen.

Every single article of clothing will have a trade off: either the 2.5L might delaminate with time/use; the "heavy" jackets just don't breathe very well, so you end up getting wet from the inside; ponchos are a decent trade off in that they keep the rain off of you and let you air out underneath, but as you mentioned ponchos are sometimes a pain to use; Sierra Designs is trying a poncho-like jacket called the Cagoule to answer some of these questions…

Basically you are on a quest for the holy grail – which as of yet does not at all exist. You just need to figure out the tradeoffs that you are wiling to deal with.

It's certainly true that if you search this site (in particular) you'll find articles that go into excellent technical detail about how much water vapor can be forced through a given fabric at a given pressure head, i.e., everything you want to know about waterproof-ness.

As Jennifer said, this doesn't always relate well to how dry that you stay. For some (many?) of us, the focus is more on temperature control.

I guess the question is whether you expect to be active, or essentially passive in the rain (in your jacket). Are you sitting in bleachers watching a sporting event, or are you hiking? If the latter, then I think the sort of responses you're getting are appropriate (if the former, and for some folks even with the latter, consider an umbrella).

Billy Ray said: "I am wondering how a 8/10 ounces waterproof jacket will fare against mine in a tropical downpour situation where you get a lot of water in a short period of time. Have these lighter jackets a low were waterproof rating?"

I've used a light (about 7 oz) OR Helium jacket on long trips, including fierce downpours, epic hailstorms, etc. Of course you get wet. It's not a big deal so long as you don't get cold/hypothermic as a result. If you're trying to keep a down jacket dry under such conditions, that would be … bad. But I submit that in such conditions you either get under actual shelter of some type or you keep moving so that body heat can work its magic.
And when the rain stops or lightens up, my lighter jacket will dry out faster as a wear it, FWIW.

I don't say that "truly waterproof" is always bad. Short walks near home. Perhaps some boating applications. Some people seem to not sweat much when they're active, the trade-off is different for them I expect. Even they wouldn't likely be well served by a thick rubber coated jacket, however — all of us perspire at least to some degree.

Here is the big problem I see with seeking advice on rain gear. What works fairly well for one person is considered to be a piece of crap to another.

I just noticed that Brian actually lives in the PNW, so his comments are more than relevant. He said:

"I've used a light (about 7 oz) OR Helium jacket on long trips, including fierce downpours, epic hailstorms, etc. Of course you get wet. It's not a big deal so long as you don't get cold/hypothermic as a result. If you're trying to keep a down jacket dry under such conditions, that would be … bad. But I submit that in such conditions you either get under actual shelter of some type or you keep moving so that body heat can work its magic.

And when the rain stops or lightens up, my lighter jacket will dry out faster as a wear it, FWIW."

I am in agreement here. The problem we face in heavy downpours is we are pushing moisture out from the interior while trying to keep water from entering from the exterior.

I have had similar results as Brian, with a similar jacket, the 2.5L Marmot Essence. It's what I used to take on most of my trips. If I suggest a solution where one would not get wet at all in a downpour (ignoring the perspiration aspect), I would suggest the Essence and an umbrella. I have never used an umbrella and it seems there are other negatives such as problems in the wind and for trekking pole users (I am not one), you would need to grow a 3rd arm. The Essence probably has a HH measurement 1/3 of the heavy Gore-Tex jackets, but works better for me using the same philosophy as in Brian's quote above.

I have been using WBP jackets since the early 80's when I bought a Gore-tex parka. With all of these garments you have to constantly revive the DWR, and dirt and sweat are enemies of WPB materials. So, as I mentioned in my Holy Grail article, I have given up on WBP garments and no longer spend my time and money in this futile search. I wish there was a good answer to your question with a product that works, but there isn't.

No, no, it's not how you use it that matters…

It's in the way that you use it, and it comes and it goes, boy don't you know!? So don't you ever abuse it, don't let it go.

but did not wet out during 2 outings, both with 2-day rains.
Not downpours, just steady, cold rain. From early morning until perhaps 4 p.m. or 5 p.m.

That's where my Neoshell (EMS Helix anorak) came through for me. No wetting out at all. Playing with the pit zips ensured comfort under the jacket, no clamminess whatsoever.
It's not light though, 13.3 oz in Large.
This is why I take a lighter jacket (2.5 layers) when the rain probability is lowish.

Like others already told you, you will not find sage advice on rain jacket on the interwebs. Conditions, pace, metabolism, how clean one keeps one's gear – all these factors differ widely from user to user.
Good luck!

Brian, sorry, but you miss quoted me… I was quoting another post (see the quotation marks in my post) and then, somehow, you attributed that quote of another to me.

In an case you guys (and sweet Gen)… all good information if we want to debate the different types, attributes, and failings of various rain gear… but… I understand all that already… I've been using WP/B gear since the very first Gortex products hit the market several decades ago… and I have decided I am in the market for a 3 layer jacket… you guys are not giving me the information that I asked for… want I want and need are recommendations on 3 layer jackets…

Thanks…

(PS… I still want/need recommendations for 3 layer jackets, but I will concede that the un-asked for debate has given me dome ideas in other ways I and yall had not anticipated… so even tough it can be frustrating that BPL posts too often turn into debates… sometimes there is silver in them thar clouds)

Billy

Buy the lightest 3 layer Gore-Tex jacket you can find then. They have to meet Gore-Tex specifications. Make sure the zippers are waterproof. Any other feedback is probably just anecdotal. Every jacket will have its fans, and also its detractors.

Thanks Nick… but tell me… is there a reason other than weight that you suggest the lightest Gortex 3 layer jacket? (I was thinking the ones with a little heavier exterior and lining material be more durable? I'm not looking for the heaviest, but maybe the lightest would be, like is often the case, a bit fragile for backpacking in the rain all day/week? All that friction and stress on the material from shoulder straps and waist belt… ya know.)

thanks,

Billy