‘Mids in Wind, Storms

I've had the middle stake pull out but the tent stayed up, so now I don't have middle stakes, just 4 corners.

The corners are under constant load. The middle flaps around so pulls out stake.

I do put one stake in the middle where the door is to keep it open when I unzip door, but that's not so much to keep tent up in heavy wind.

I would say tipi-style or hex-style mids generally do best in wind. Smaller pyramid tarps also do well in wind. The more fabric you have presented to the wind, the stronger your anchors will have to be, or you just use more. I've had mid-point ground level stakes pull out, but surprisingly, my main corner stakes have always held. I put more effort into the corners.

The way I look at mid panel tie-outs is that they can reduce some of the strain/impact of gusty winds on the corner tie-outs.

This can be important when you have difficult ground and/or anchors to deal with.
The more tie-outs points the better in some situations. If you loose a corner tie-out, the mid tie-out may save the shelter from full-on collapse.

Had a 9×9 mid pitched at about 9000' last night… Pretty windy at nightfall and again this morning, maybe 20mph. Between some trees as a loose windbreak and 4 corner stakes pegged out and rocks as anchors at the mid points along the bottom it felt pretty bomber.

Actually, it depends more on the ground, type of stake, and length of guy lines.

Of course sand is not a real good anchor. Like snow, stakes don't take a good bite. Nor are lots of rocks and gravel, making it more like larger sand particles. Compacted soil, slightly damp is about the best (often grass covered.)

We know there are differences in staking power. Double staking is about 50% stronger than a single stake. The longer and wider the stake, the harder it is to dislodge them. "Y" stakes vs. "V" stakes vs. carbon stakes vs. … well, there are many different styles and they all work well depending on your soil conditions.

As far as Mid-point guy outs, they can be very helpful or may reduce the strength of corner stakes. I have a couple LONG lines on one of my tarps. These have *never* pulled out in winds less than 40mph even though I switched to light shepherds hooks. They hold at a fairly low angle to the tarp.

The first set of drawings are my tarp showing the difference in guy line length.

The pyramid tarp with guy lines shows the difference between the blow-down pressure of the wind.

If you use a trekking pole to lift the guyline before the attachment to the tarp, it can be worse than not using it at all. It will apply pressure in an upward direction.

I agree with everything Chenault had to say on the subject. I have been using mids for years, starting with a Chouinard in the early 80's.

I have done a lot of testing of mids in windy weather. If you have hiked the PCT, the two windiest parts you experienced were probably Fobes Saddle and the San Gorgonio Pass. About 10 miles south of the PCT in the San Gorgonio Pass is Garnet Hill. It is the windiest place in the pass, as the wind accelerates as it approaches the hill. The wind and sand actually carve groves in the rocks, creating what are called ventifacts (see below)

This is where I test my shelters, also the soil is sandy. If the wind is too strong, it will strip paint from cars and turn windshields opaque, which means those days are not good for testing. In this case I go up to Fobes Saddle, which can be incredibly windy when a high pressure storm is moving towards a low pressure system in the desert (this area of the PCT has been closed for almost 2 years due to the Mountain Fire).

The best mid for wind is the TrailStar — hands down. The large footprint will keep you dry in heavy rain, assuming you picked a good spot to pitch it. The large foot print can also be problematic — it can sometimes be difficult to find a large enough spot to set it up. The TrailStar is not easy to get in and out of for many people, it is fine for me.

Pole strength and secure stakes, especially at corners of any mid are critical. Forget Ti hooks for corners. Big rocks are your friends. I generally use Ground Hogs, Long Easton Stakes, or even snow stakes in some sandy areas. Sometimes a 'deadman' is the best solution.

I have grown to like the LineLoc 3's in bad weather. Quick and easy set up — easy to adjust. In bad wind, 2mm and 2.5mm cord will slip in the LineLocs. I have replaced all the lines on all my shelters with 3 mm GlowWire from Lawson Kline for this reason.

Heavy snow is a problem with mids, and the TrailStar doesn't do as well as the taller mids. So, I would not call a mid a serious 4 season shelter for this reason.

"As far as Mid-point guy outs, they can be very helpful or may reduce the strength of corner stakes. I have a couple LONG lines on one of my tarps. These have *never* pulled out in winds less than 40mph even though I switched to light shepherds hooks. They hold at a fairly low angle to the tarp."

The physics of your diagram are logical, but can you explain in more detail about the length and angle of the guylines? Most mids I've seen have guylines, but nowhere near that long.

It seems like a lot of duplex owners use the trekking pole in between the stake and tent method that you stated isn't very strong.

Re: "can you explain in more detail about the length and angle of the guylines?"

His observations are the same as mine.

The shallower angle reduces the upward pull on stakes and so I find a more solid hold in most conditions.

This can also true if using a deadman with rocks piled on top. A shallow angle creates more drag/friction. A steeper angle can lift somewhat, reducing the drag that holds the deadman in place.

and angle of stake

there was a BPL article

if stake is at right angle or more to load it should be okay

if stake is at less than right angle it will tend to pull out

you have to factor in that when there's a load on a stake for a while, it will often tend to pull the top of the stake over a little, making the angle less

if you really stomp a shepard hook so the top of the stake is actually below ground level a little, it'll stay better

if the ground is soft, or there are rocks or roots that prevent you from getting the stake all the way in, then put a big rock on the top

Ok, thank you.

The guylines with my mid are about 4 feet long, but I would estimate, based on the diagram above, that they would need to be about 7 feet long to have the same shallow angle, with respect to the ground. That's just a really rough estimate without actually measuring angles.

I suppose this detail – guyline length and angle – comes into play only with significant winds and/or stakes that have relatively little holding power. Still, the purpose of this thread was to facilitate discussion of mids in harsh conditions, and I'll definitely be reconfiguring my setup.

I'm guessing this would be sufficient:

Well, it is a simple matter of physics. The longer guy line decreases the angle of incidence on the tent, resulting in more drag on the tent. As Steve was saying, it turns the staking into more of this drag, than a traditional hold DOWN. Other stakes are for holding it down. Without a free source of air *under* the tent, it will stay put or rip the fabric or bend the poles with longer guy lines. Meaning you held staking till destruction. But for normal 40-50mph winds, Longer guy lines tend to brace the body against the wind, quite strongly. If the wind cannot, in effect, "roll" the tent(putting pressure to come loose on one, two,…ZIP go the stakes) then it has to go over and around it. Moving air causes lift. This means aerodynamics: gravity, power, lift and drag. You cannot do anything with gravity. The wind is supplying the power. You want the drag to counteract the lift, so, increase it. (Not quite correct, but easy to understand.)

You really need the tent to just stay put. You want the edges buttoned up close to the ground, fairly tight, and, with doors closed. Again, winds will create aerodynamic lift as they go over/around the tent. IFF the wind can get inside the tent, this allows the air pressure to build inside, pushing the tent UP or lifting it. Even if the door is away from the wind and is open, it will allow air pressure to change rapidly, hammering your stakes loose, as in the above paragraph. Lift is the enemy here. Look it up. Barns blow down(actually a misnomer, more lift and roll) because doors are left open in strong winds. I was always told to close the barn doors in a blow, with reason. I just apply the lesson to tents thanks to my GrandFather.

> I'm guessing this would be sufficient:
Looks good to me.

Cheers

>> I have grown to like the LineLoc 3's in bad weather. Quick and easy set up — easy to adjust. In bad wind, 2mm and 2.5mm cord will slip in the LineLocs. I have replaced all the lines on all my shelters with 3 mm GlowWire from Lawson Kline for this reason.

Funny, this page seems to say that 2mm cord would be ideal: http://www.dutchwaregear.com/linelocs-3.html

I am unable to pull my 2mm glowire thru whatever type of LineLoc is on my new MLD 'mid, using a continuous pull of maybe 30-40lb. Perhaps the jerky pull of wind blowing on a shelter would b worse.

BTW, this dutchwaregear has apparently taken over all of Lawson's titanium products.

"Funny, this page seems to say that 2mm cord would be ideal: http://www.dutchwaregear.com/linelocs-3.html

I am unable to pull my 2mm glowire thru whatever type of LineLoc is on my new MLD 'mid, using a continuous pull of maybe 30-40lb. Perhaps the jerky pull of wind blowing on a shelter would b worse"

My mid (Locus Gear Khufu) came with 2mm Dyneema core reflective guyline for all the stake tie outs. I've noticed that the linelocks will slip with sufficient tension. I have a few dozen feet of 2.5mm line that I might replace the tie outs with and just use the 2mm line for the mid panel tie outs, for which I just use midshipman's hitches.

This is a LineLoc 3 using Lawson 3 mm GloWire on my SMD Deshutes CF:

I have the same setup on my TrailStar:

You might have to slightly lift the tab on the LineLoc with a fingertip, then it will tighten very easily.

Yes, the 2.5 mm is "okay" but we are talking about using mids in high winds.

BTW, last year I bought 100 LineLoc 3's from zPacks for $25.

I see a lot of advice to either stack a rock on top of your stake or tie off to rocks.  How do you deal with guylines abrading on rocks and breaking?  I had this happen to me last night in my Duomid in 50 MPH winds and it wasn’t fun.

Use Spectra or Dacron maybe. Or use sacrificial string tied tightly around the rock with the tent guy tied to the string.

I had that once when my Spectra guys abraded on the hard edges of my Titanium snow stakes all night in 100 kph wind. Most failed after 8 hours. The BIG problem was that I never found all those lovely Ti stakes afterwards!

Cheers

Why not a closed loop of swaged stainless steel wire at the end of the guyline or permanently attached to sand/snow anchors?

Yes it is heavier than the Spectra but the over-all additional weight isn’t great and it is very abrasion resistant and adapts to deadman sticke very well.

Not made them myself but I do use short  heavier polyester cordelettes for this purpose, lawnmower starter cord is designed to be abrasion resistant but I usually use ordinary plaited cord.

I’ve gone through 3 Mids, an original Chouinard and 2 BD Megamids, all of them failed by breakage of the centre pole.

Y’all have me paranoid about my 2mm Lawson line now.

I have 3mm MLD reflecto but it feels too big in the Linelocs of my Duomid. Maybe that is what it’s supposed to feel like?

a closed loop of swaged stainless steel wire at the end of the guyline or permanently attached to sand/snow anchors?
Could work, but might be heavier and might be less flexible or versatile. Needs multi-strand SS wire – which is available. Needs testing.

For my Ti snow stakes I found a different solution: softer aluminium eyelets in the holes in the Ti stakes to buffer the string. Making the Ti stakes and fixing the holes in the Ti metal are covered (of course!) in two BPL articles:
https://backpackinglight.com/make_your_own_gear_titanium_snow_stakes/
https://backpackinglight.com/myog_ti_snow_stakes_part_2/

Cheers

Hi Matthew

First question: what is the breaking strain for the 2 mm cord?
Second question: what is the breaking strain for your tarp/tent?

I am willing to bet that the 2 mm cord is MUCH stronger than the attachment points on your tent. Which is as it should be – but not to an excess.

Cheers
PS: I am using 1 mm cord.

Roger, I’m not concerned about breaking the 2mm cord. The discussion above mentions it pulling through the linelocs. I suppose a half hitch on a night as a safety would prevent any slippage if one were expecting extreme wind.

Ah, OK.

I have not used the LineLoc3s at all so I don’t know. I use the Clam Cleat CL266 from the UK instead (see posting at end of https://backpackinglight.com/myog_ti_snow_stakes_part_2/).
You might ask the good Mr Lawson what he recommends – he will probably suggest his ‘bar cleats’ instead.

I note that some vendors (including ITWNexus, the mfr) state that the LineLoc3s are for string 2.5 mm- 3 mm, and are not recommended for really hard string anyhow. Um.
On the other hand, the ClamCleat CL266s are designed for string 1 mm – 3 mm, which does cover what you want. I have used them on 1 mm string, but prefer something just a shade fatter.

In any event, adding a slip hitch up against the whatever toggle you use can only help.

Cheers

When / If I get another ‘Mid I’m sewing on a set of loops to take toggles along the base. To these I can add either an insect barrier for summer or a decently wide valance for winter