Esbit burner testing

[DAN-Y]

Thank you for your help Robert. I’ll put your info to good use :-) Get more rest!

[rmeurant]

As per my previous post, I think the Ti tripod Esbit holder is quite dinky, but could do with a redesign, or rather, a superior design could be suggested. Another problem, other than the two I previously mentioned, is the rivet can give out after a while. The tripod is such a fundamental structure, a pure form, that its design wants to be really refined. I now get annoyed that the 3 legs are at different heights (along the axis), notwithstanding the real practical difficulty of avoiding that. One approach might be the African carved wooden tripods one comes across – they show true 3-fold rotational symmetry, and are ingenious. They have been carved out of a single piece of wood, and the three struts interpentrate one another. They fold back to approximate the original single “log”. They must have had symbolic significance. Some are 4-fold or higher frequency symmetry. Maybe some similar form could be adapted in titanium, notwithstanding the great differences in material and technique. The pure form reinterpreted for contemporary use, and obviating the need for a rivet; and folding rather more efficiently (than the existing Ti tripod).

 

[rmeurant]

I’ve just had the insight that the 2nd African wooden image (and I guess all 4), when open, exploit the interpenetration of Cartesian XYZ axes, from the XYZ view/axis. So at the junction, the equivalent of 2 struts for each X,Y,Z axis, as per refined Japanese joinery (above, Indian) and as per tensegrity structures, so maybe a tensegrity version could also be a possibility. (The axes are rotated from the normal frame of reference, so XYZ becomes the vertical main axis, and the structure fold and opens about that axis). Below, much coarser example of similar principle, but cheating, compared with the one piece African carved case.

Oops…

[rmeurant]

… which I used to play around with.

[DAN-Y]

Robert, you should be able to design a better hammock stand than this one and then use your esbit stove to kick back and enjoy a cuppa :-) It’s easy peasy to bend the ti legs of the 3 legged stand ;-)

[rmeurant]

Ahhh, do I detect the influence of Ostwald ripening of end-of-range defects on transient enhanced diffusion in silicon, or just the pursuit of laidback luxury? Great balance!

[DAN-Y]

As we progress into the world of solid fuel esbit, enter the Titanium BGET

The legs have been replaced with a carbon felt insulator disc. The disc prevents heat transfer from the tray. The tray has bread pan corners to prevent loss of burnable esbit juice ;) It is so light weight that my postal scale doesn’t even know it’s on it.

 

[rmeurant]

Please rush order of 2.5 million units to me c/o the East Pole.

[DAN-Y]

Robert, send me an email and I’ll send one to you International Eastern Postal System. 

[Jerry Adams]

Those are pretty cool structures Robert

Hmmm…  I need to take up that hobby, making structures like that

[rmeurant]

Jerry,

Not sure if you’re referring to the tensegrity, or the tripods.

if the tensegrity, I got very involved with them circa 1967-8, and designed and constructed many tensegrity polyhedra, trusses, and lattices. Inspired by Bucky Fuller, and the explorations took me deeper into experimental geometry and structure, which has been an abiding passion.

As regards the tripods (and higher frequency forms, I suppose you could generalize them as antiprisms folding about a unique (vertical) axis of symmetry), my musings came from contemplation of the center, the attraction to pure form, and the formal and mathematical sophistication of the African tripods carved from one wooden rod, Fire at the center, and a cosmos within. Such folding tripods offer true 3f rotational symmetry, but not reflective symmetry (once they are allowed to fold). So they have a unique spin, either clockwise or anticlockwise. Simply as an approach to pure essence, they function pretty well. There is a Japanese 4f folding fire support with gauze top along similar lines, but not as purely detailed, and the legs don’t interpenetrate.

I think simply for formal purity, Dan’s Esbit tray needs to be (flatish) cylindrical, with (flatish) circular (cylindrical) fuel tabs (like biscuits). They could be of varying thickness to give a range of size, but the same diameter. Of course they could also have a diameter or two diameter indentations at right angles allowing them to be snapped in half or quarters. The round tray could then sit in the unfolded tripod.

Possibly each tripod leg is formed of two struts, like splitting bamboo lengthwise, then interpenetrated, and both ends of each pair of struts pushed into end caps to form the legs. If just one end is capped, each pair is like a tuning fork, but more delicate, or like tweezers. Then the other end is fastened as well. That would make assembly feasible, but near the center (lengthwise) there has to be some form of stagger to allow the three legs to co-align along the same axis when folded. I’m pretty sure there need only be one element – one strut – of which it takes 2 to make one leg, 6 to make the tripod. So in terms of tooling, it could be quite efficient. Just one strut to make. Maybe instead of an end cap, it snaps together with a built-in (molded/stamped) dome (that is part of the no doubt titanium strut). Each strut has a male part of the fixing dome at one end, the female part at the other. The strut form overall is like a very elongated S, without the ends coming back in. Straight, then the wave in the central portion, then straight again along (parallel to, just a bit displaced) the same axis. Maybe there needs to be a second wave, so it deflects, then returns to the same axis. Instead of the built in snap, each end of a leg could have a rivet to hold the two strut parts together.

The stove would only work if highly refined, at the sort of level where it could pass for a luxury desktop item or better, a meditative icon, a support for contemplation, and making a brew. A nice cuppa tea, or hit of caffeine. Or maybe I’m far too fussy,

 

[DAN-Y]

Too fussy 

Refined like this one ;)

[rmeurant]

Something is very alarming when I am watching with rapt attention 3 min 37 sec videos of stoves burning. Dan, you have captured the numerical essence of combustion; it’s 3-fold nature and 37 primal quality, and as we know,

3 x 37 = 111, 6 x 37 = 222, 9 x 37 = 333, etc.

A little further development, and I believe we will no longer need fuel. The resonance of pure form ought to be enough, and perchance akin to tumo (tummo), the inner Fire that Buddhist monks generate to keep themselves warm in extreme conditions, In a related matter, I recently edited a fascinating paper on meta materials, which uses arrays of nano-cylinders as light diffusers I think, to generate vibrant colors for displays, using similar technology that is used to produce the dizzying color in butterfly wings.

[rmeurant]

PLASMA

[rmeurant]

Excuse my fixation, but I have another handle on the tripod design. Consider each leg is like a needle. Only the needle is such that the hole has been slid down to the mid-part (lengthwise of course), and the two ends could be similar to one another (not head and point), using pliers, a mild bend or twist is put in the mid part:

——————\\_________

Not as strong a bend as above, and the double slashes represent the hole and surrounding material (not protruding above the left half, I’m on an iPad keyboard, limited). But the axis of the hole lies in the plane of the diagram, not perpendicular to it. Then somehow, those three legs are interpenetrated. That is a way of imagining the tripod design. Pruning…

[Jerry Adams]

Those are all pretty cool, even the esbit burners : )

 

[Eric Blumensaadt]

I keep saying – “modified” solid rocket fuel and we’re THERE!

[DAN-Y]

Eric, you hinted to that last year and no one has take you up on it. Maybe Esbit Man Yon has some up his sleeve

[rmeurant]

Plasma-torch high-orbital chopped Asahi 2 liter fueled tensilated caffeination life-support system.

Note the complete absence of ventilation portals on the heat reentry shield.

Main portal on the inner caffein fuel tank in open status.

Landing gear deployed in open status. Note precise fit of tripod landing gear within reusable heat shield:

Landing capsule deployed, main nutrient system operational in close proximity to large asteroid:

[DAN-Y]

Robert, your fixation on the number 3 is very interesting.

How well is your reusable heat shield holding up, has the top edge melted?

Note the complete absence of ventilation portals on the heat reentry shield.

Tell us more about the absence of ventilation portals. How well does the plasma torch burn without air entry? Does it burn very slow? Is there a very pungent odor emitted when burning? Give me 3 answers

I have attached the carbon felt disc to the bottom of the titanium esbit tray with high temperature, automotive silicone caulk. Less chance of losing it ;-) Now available in Gear Deals

https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/bget-titanium-solid-fuel-tray/

My next challenge is to make the Esbit Concentrator out of Titanium

 

 

 

[rmeurant]

Dan, thanks for your interest. The tripod is wrongly shown in alternate array; in normal deployment, it is rotated 60* (or 180*) to that shown. The lack of ventilation portals is of course appropriate for micro gravitational use, but phase IIb testing reveals high efficiency in planetary deployment. However, there are a couple of limitations. As the top of the shield has no cutouts, the system cannot at present be used with a (small) frypan (wider diameter than the shield), as oxygen cannot reach the flame. But that could be easily fixed with simple scalloping of the edge. Secondly, these bloody Esbit tripods don’t last well; the rivet loosens. They are a little bit of a nuisance to deploy, and also to store. And the tripod takes up too much (unnecessary) volume in the rig. The ideal would be to punch (stamp) a tray size depression in the dome of the base, but I don’t have the equipment. The shield would then be a bit lower, as the seating of the tabs would be lower. Somehow the pot would have to be supported, maybe by a Ti wire stringing, maybe in a Star of David config. I don’t know how the aluminum depression for the tabs would stand up to the Esbit flame. I normally use the system without the MSR suspension rig, but it is so light, I keep it rolled up in the bottom of the pot/shield bag. I only use the small 4 g tabs, sometimes 2 at a time, e.g. to boil 2 eggs; only 0.5 or 1 for coffee. The system is very useful, as I’ve found that the shield can even rest on burnable litter, without causing it to catch fire. Once lit, it offers great wind protection, but lighting is a bit tricky without a jet lighter. (Ordinary Bic is ok but will burn yer finger). By the way, I recently had an Esbit tab splutter and spit fire alarmingly – even discolored the inside of the shield. I have had the odd tab do that before, but this was alarmingly violent, almost explosive. Normally, Esbit is very well-behaved.

I really wish someone else would try this system, and refine it more. It is ideal with the 400 cc Evernew cup, and I highly recommend the separately purchasable Evernew lid, which is a major asset, though it is weird to get it to snap tight. When snapped tight, I would not trust liquid in it, it might spontaneously open. Loose fit is no problem, and convenient to use. You just need the Asahi 2 liter beer can – it’s a great beer (my favorite), served cold, but I normally only get small cans or bottles. Good thickness of alu – strong enough, not too thick.

As regards 3, well it is the minimum expression of multiplicity and of harmony, as 2 is so unstable. An active number, cf static earthy 4, and traditionally associated with the sky, holy trinity, a suitable number for fire. Ad Triangulum was a well respected medieval proportioning system used in cathedrals. The triangle is the purest expression of articulated two-dimensional extension, the upward pointing triangle symbolizing fire. Fire at the center. The sun. Et ceteRa.

[DAN-Y]

Gaseous inclusions might be the cause of the spitting and sputtering. I experienced that numerous times in my testing.

Richard May, author of this thread, uses the bottom of a beer can to burn his esbit in. You can use one of those placed on the bottom of your Asahi creation. Use 2 titanium stakes place through the walls of your Asahi to support your pot.

 

[rmeurant]

The misbehaving esbit tabs appeared to be crystallized.
I considered the Ti stakes, but they project on the outside, and I wanted something more flush when (in in it’s bag) the shield (with pot inside) is in the pack. And not needing to be assembled each time (poking the stakes thru the required holes in the shield). Hence the idea of a weave of thinner Ti wire, crossing the interior, wrapping around the outside to the next hole, etc.

[rmeurant]

A better way to support the pot would be to regularly deform the shield so it has (three) interior dimples in its circumferential surface that bear the pot.

More generally, this suggests an idea for a one-piece Aluminum or even Ti shield that has a base with dome in which a depression bears the tabs, and several dimples on the circumference protruding into the interior of the shield bear the pot. So the functions of the tripod – tab container/support and pot support – are integrated into the shield. Scalloped top rim to the shield to allow use with wider frying pan. The pot is stored in the shield when not in use.

By the way (most of the time ) I treat the symbolism very lightly – it is part intellectual game, but also a technique for injecting or sometimes realizing meaning in the process and product. Similar to intention in art. So the stove can serve as a repository of meaning, as well as a functional device, in the way in which traditional objects are imbued with significance, while serving prosaic ends.

[DAN-Y]

A better way to support the pot would be to regularly deform the shield so it has (three) interior dimples in its circumferential surface that bear the pot.

More generally, this suggests an idea for a one-piece Aluminum or even Ti shield that has a base with dome in which a depression bears the tabs, and several dimples on the circumference protruding into the interior of the shield bear the pot. So the functions of the tripod – tab container/support and pot support – are integrated into the shield. Scalloped top rim to the shield to allow use with wider frying pan. The pot is stored in the shield when not in use.

 

I really like that solution the best.

I like how you use symbolism in your posts. You are unique and I enjoy the symbolism. :-)

 

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