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Backpacking Light

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You are here: Home / Column / The Overlook: Understanding Livestock Grazing in Wilderness Areas

The Overlook: Understanding Livestock Grazing in Wilderness Areas

by Ben Kilbourne on December 15, 2020 Column, New Features

The Overlook is Backpacking Light’s new monthly column where hiker, writer, and thinker Ben Kilbourne will explore backpacking from many different vantages. He will try to climb up to a high place with a view, an overlook, where the myriad issues intertwined with backpacking can be seen. This column will challenge the reader to embrace complexity and engage in thoughtful dialogue with other readers. Join us at The Overlook!

On a Saturday afternoon, we hit the smoky road with the sun setting red outside of Evanston, Wyoming. We passed windmills beside I-80 in the twilight and let the GPS guide us to the China Meadows trailhead on the Northern Slope of the Uintas. The next day, we would be heading into the Red Castle area of the High Uintas Wilderness.

We camped in the pines while the yellow moon rose out of them and crossed the sky while we slept. Cows grunted, mooed, and bawled in the dark just before dawn. After crawling sleepily out of the back of the truck, we made tea and grits, packed our packs, and then rolled slowly down the road to find the China Meadows parking lot completely filled. Without exaggeration, there were probably about 60 cars, indicating that well over 100 people would be on the trail we were about to walk.

Grazed through wilderness

Hallie and Easy walking through Wilderness rangeland in the Uintas.

Our first encounter on the trail, however, was not human but bovine. We had been hearing them all morning, hoping they’d be out in a meadow somewhere, trampling delicate riparian vegetation, rather than on the trail where we’d have to deal with them. They turned out to be in both places. Within a half-mile (800 m), we saw the first giant black cow standing like a disgruntled and erratic bus. The mechanisms and the pilot behind those giant white eyes were unpredictable, and the tension between that unpredictability and the very certain weight of the thing was terrifying. The leashed dog was asked to heel and did so promptly, and then we stood there watching the beast.

“How much do you think they weigh?” Hallie asked.

“I don’t know. A thousand pounds?” I guessed.

“Holy crap.”

We stood and waited and watched the enormous cow watch us. Her also enormous baby ambled out of the aspens, ducked his head under her side, and found breakfast. Since they appeared uninterested in letting us pass, we decided to walk around — way around. We tromped into a soggy meadow through waist-high grasses and between bunches of willows. Thankfully, the cow seemed disinterested, and we were able to pass easily.

A spring surrounded by cow pies

Cowpies and a spring in the Uintas.

But for the next mile (1.6 km), we dodged giant, black cows. Some stood in the trail; others peered at us through the lodgepole from every direction. We nervously and quickly moved through, hanging tightly onto the dog’s leash. When the trail led to a gate, we opened it, stepped through, and closed it from the other side.

“I wonder if this means no more cows,” I inquired.

“I hope so,” said Hallie.

The cows we encountered were in designated Wilderness, which felt strange considering the use of words like “untrammeled” in the Wilderness Act. But it was never going to get passed without a livestock provision. Wayne Aspinall, a Democrat from Colorado, stalled the vote from 1960 to 1963, refusing to vote until a livestock provision was added. Today, there is livestock in about 330 designated wildernesses throughout the lower 48, encompassing a total area of about 10 million acres. The Wilderness Act of 1964 stipulates that any permits active before the Act are allowed to continue almost indefinitely. Due to this livestock inclusion, exceptions are often made for ORVs, fences, the poisoning of prairie dogs — things otherwise not allowed in Wilderness.

Livestock in Wilderness areas and public lands in the west is a complex and divisive issue. As a hiker, my first reaction to encountering them on the trail always has to do with personal safety — I don’t want to be trampled. Then I see the damage they’re doing — cowpies in springs and wet meadows, riparian vegetation devastated. I start to ask, “what are they doing here?” Then I think about the people who own the cows — whose cultural identities are inextricably tied to them. It feels uncomfortable to be frustrated with someone’s means of making a living. Does a backpacker have the right to tell them their cows are destructive?

The majority of public lands grazing in the 11 western states of Arizona, California, Colorado, Idaho, Montana, New Mexico, Nevada, Oregon, Utah, Washington, and Wyoming takes place on Bureau of Land Management (BLM) and United States Forest Service (USFS) land. Because these lands are not irrigated, they are referred to as rangelands — in contrast with pasturelands, which are irrigated. There are about 21,000 livestock operators on BLM and USFS lands in the west. Compared to the 800,000 operators in the U.S., these only make up 2.7% of all livestock operators in the country.

Cows in the desert

Cows grazing in the San Rafael Desert in Southern Utah.

And there’s a reason there are so few livestock operators on these western rangelands despite the sheer abundance of acreage — the forage is generally poor. It’s so poor, in fact, that western livestock operators can’t make a living without government subsidies. Fees for livestock operators on public rangelands in the west are kept artificially low. If they had to pay market value for their product, there would instantly be no livestock industry at all on these rangelands!

According to a report by the Center for Biological Diversity, “the federal lands grazing program generated $125 million less than what the federal government spent on the program in 2014.”

Part of this figure includes nearly $24,000 that taxpayers dole out to each one of these operators every year. While I don’t see any problem helping out those who are struggling, I do feel some hesitancy about helping out a struggling industry that is so ecologically destructive. In addition to direct costs, there are millions of dollars in indirect costs associated with remediating damage caused by livestock and the removal of predators.

I thought of this as we stepped over puddles filled with cowpies. The ecological costs — predator extermination, vegetation removal, and trampled riparian areas — didn’t seem worth the minimal contributions made to the GDPs of these 11 western states. Shouldn’t we just have cows in landscapes less harsh, where they can graze happily?

Cowpies under a tree

Cows must huddle in the shade of this tree throughout the summer.

After a couple of beautiful days exploring lakes and waterfalls and watching unreal rainbows materialize across the red quartz-sandstone of Red Castle, the trip concluded with an exit through the same cow-choked stretch of trail. But this time, it was even worse. The first mama we encountered turned and faced us and started towards us. Chaotically, we scurried backward a good thirty feet (9 m) and reevaluated. She stood staring at us. “She looks pissed,” one of us said. When she finally went back to grazing, we detoured around her only to find ourselves face to face with another protective mother, this time a 1,500-pound (750 kg) beast.

“What do hikers do about cows?” Hallie asked. “We can’t just be expected to walk past these clearly upset and protective mothers. Can we?”

I suddenly realized I had no concrete answer to this question.

“As soon as we’re back in service, I’m going to look up how many people are killed by cows each year,” she continued.

Agreeing to play it safe, we began bushwhacking through young aspens, common juniper, and willow to get as far away as possible from those wary mothers.

When we hit I-80, Hallie Googled, “How many people are killed by cows in the U.S. each year?” The answer was somewhat surprising to me — about twenty, mostly killed by kicking and trampling, and most by protective mothers. This figure was much higher than the threats we think about more often, like bears and mountain lions. I suddenly felt like we’d been careless and vowed then and there to be more vigilant when in livestock situations.

Of course, the physical danger posed to backpackers like myself is just a tiny side effect of a much larger issue. And I recognize that my viewpoint is only one of many vantages from which to look at it. Again, I thought of the 21,000 livestock operators whose identities are linked to this way of life. That’s 21,000 people who I’m asking to change in order to maintain ecological intactness on public lands in the west. It’s a big ask, no doubt. I can hear their response, too — “What do you want me to do instead?” Undeniably, no one deserves to have the rug ripped out from under them like that. But the government subsidies are already so huge that it makes a lot of sense to just use that same money for establishing new ways of life for these people.

This will help them get on their feet and establish occupations they can be proud of. Maybe this is easier said than done, but I can see this way forward and feel hopeful while still wondering if backpackers, conservationists, politicians, and western livestock operators are capable of having this conversation together right now. Hopefully, we will be able to have it soon.

Further Reading

Western Watersheds Project “The Real Price and Consequences of Livestock Grazing on America’s Public Lands”

Center For Biological Diversity “Costs and Consequences”

The Wildlife News “Wilderness and Cows”

Related Content

  • Catch up on The Overlook by Ben Kilbourne here.

DISCLOSURE (Updated November 7, 2019)

  • Some (but not all) of the links on this page may be “affiliate” links. If you click on one of these links and visit one of our affiliate partners (usually a retailer site), and subsequently place an order with that retailer, we receive a small commission. These commissions help us provide authors with honoraria, fund our editorial projects, podcasts, instructional webinars, and more, and we appreciate it a lot! Thank you for supporting Backpacking Light!

Ben Kilbourne, blm, cows, grazing, land management, livestock, pasturelands, public lands, rangelands, The Overlook, usfs

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Home › Forums › The Overlook: Understanding Livestock Grazing in Wilderness Areas

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  • Dec 15, 2020 at 8:42 am #3689118
    Backpacking Light
    Admin

    @backpackinglight

    Locale: Rocky Mountains

    BPL columnist Ben Kilbourne uses a close encounter to examine the practice of livestock grazing on public land.

    • The Overlook: Understanding Livestock Grazing in Wilderness Areas

    We understand this issue might be contentious. The point of The Overlook is to foster conversation, but we ask you to remember this from BPL’s forum guidelines:

    “GUIDELINES FOR DISCUSSION OF POLITICS, RELIGION, AND OTHER IDENTITY-BASED SUBJECTS

    Focus on issues – policies and positions – not on people, personalities, or identity groups.
    Be specific; steer clear of generalizations and stereotyping.”

    Thanks!

    -BPL

    Dec 15, 2020 at 10:27 am #3689149
    Bruce Tolley
    BPL Member

    @btolley

    Locale: San Francisco Bay Area

    BLM is part of the Department of the Interior.  USFS is part of the Department of Agriculture. The different but often overlapping missions of the two agencies dates back their origins and (not to mention political competition as agencies) during the great Western expansion of the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

    I am not sure what the problem statement in this essay is.  Is it the adverse impact of cattle grazing on land protected by the Wilderness Act?  Or is a more broad claim about the adverse impact of cattle on range lands leased from BLM or USFS or all of the above.

    Some of what you are seeing might well be the impact of the hollowing out of  the local presence of US Govt, the push from Washington not to enforce procedural rules and regulations on the books,  not to mention the roll back of landmark environmental protections including those passed under Republican adminsitrations such as the Clean Air and Clean Water Acts. Many US government agencies that deliver basic services and protect and serve (US Weather Service and CDC just to name two) over the last four years have been diminished and decimated (see Michael Lewis, The Fifth Risk: Undoing Democracy).

     

    Dec 15, 2020 at 11:19 am #3689160
    Ben C
    BPL Member

    @alexdrewreed

    Locale: Kentucky

    I grew up working cattle regularly. I think the fear is probably a little overdrawn. I suspect almost all of the deaths are caused on farms instead of on trails. While they merit respect, a little common sense will keep us out of most possible harm. I don’t love them on recreational land, as they tear up the land wherever they go – worse than humans almost.

    Dec 15, 2020 at 11:55 am #3689171
    owareusa.com
    BPL Member

    @bivysack-com-2-2

    Locale: East Washington

    “Within a half-mile (800 m), we saw the first giant black cow standing like a disgruntled and erratic bus. The mechanisms and the pilot behind those giant white eyes were unpredictable, and the tension between that unpredictability and the very certain weight of the thing was terrifying. “

    Now that’s some hyperbole. (mod edit: no, just a description of lived experience and professed emotion; hyperbole = exaggerated statements or claims not to be interpreted literally)

    “Due to this livestock inclusion, exceptions are often made for ORVs, fences, the poisoning of prairie dogs “

    Link to that? I haven’t seen a wilderness yet that allowed ORV’s, certainly not “often”. More hyperbole.

    “Then I see the damage they’re doing — cowpies in springs and wet meadows, riparian vegetation devastated. I start to ask, “what are they doing here?”

    That is the biggest problem in my mind with grazing is poorly managed grazing, Keep them below tree line, out of water sources, moved frequently to prevent over grazing etc.

    “If they had to pay market value for their product, there would instantly be no livestock industry at all on these rangelands!”

    Market value for poor grazing is tiny. Market value isn’t the term to use here. They are paying market value. Subsidies is a better word.

    I like to eat local free range beef, I like to support the local rancher who is one of the only people in the rural county that pays property taxes on his lands that his cattle graze the rest of the year.

    No property taxes come in from the huge amounts of Federal land to support schools, hospitals, county roads etc.

    And for those that say, let em learn to code, they could use some broadband first.

     

    Dec 15, 2020 at 12:25 pm #3689181
    Paul Wagner
    BPL Member

    @balzaccom

    Locale: Wine Country

    Most of these contracts for range cattle in wilderness areas have been grandfathered in.  The contracts are not open to open bidding.  In fact, if a group of hikers came together to crowd-fund one of them, they would not be allowed to bid, because they do not already have a history of running cattle on these lands.

    And there is a reason for the subsidies–running cattle on these lands is a money-losing proposition.  The cattle ranchers don’t do it because it is cost effective, they do it because if they stopped doing it, they would lost their opportunity to bid on future contracts.  So they continue to run cattle, lose money, and get subsidized as a way of maintaining something they have done for generations–even though it costs them money.

    Expensive habit, in many ways.

    Dec 15, 2020 at 12:46 pm #3689185
    Dondo .
    BPL Member

    @dondo

    Locale: Colorado Rockies

    Ben, as always, I enjoyed your article and your perspectives on the issues.   I wrote about a similar trip here.

    As far as the issue of grazing on public lands, well, I’m just not going to step into that cow pie.

    Dec 15, 2020 at 2:06 pm #3689197
    Dan
    BPL Member

    @dan-s

    Locale: Colorado

    The stories are getting more and more farfetched. First there’s a crazy guy yelling at you for wearing a mask, now the vicious cows are driving you off the trail. C’mon man, they’re cows. The main danger I face from livestock on public lands involves the semi-feral Great Pyrenees dogs intermingled with the sheep. We’ve had some close calls with them.

    But seriously, I don’t enjoy having the livestock in wilderness areas, they are super messy and cause a lot of damage. So I generally try to avoid areas where they are grazing. Not always 100% possible, but I have a pretty good sense of where to find them at this point.

    Other than that, try writing your senators and congresspeople.

    Dec 15, 2020 at 3:14 pm #3689206
    Dan Y
    BPL Member

    @zelph2

    Again, I thought of the 21,000 livestock operators whose identities are linked to this way of life. That’s 21,000 people who I’m asking to change in order to maintain ecological intactness on public lands in the west. It’s a big ask, no doubt. I can hear their response, too — “What do you want me to do instead?” Undeniably, no one deserves to have the rug ripped out from under them like that. But the government subsidies are already so huge that it makes a lot of sense to just use that same money for establishing new ways of life for these people.

    Yes, then we can import our beef from Australia.

    Dec 15, 2020 at 3:38 pm #3689210
    MojoRisen
    BPL Member

    @mojorisen

    Locale: I’m a pilot. Almost anywhere!

    ”western livestock operators can’t make a living without government subsidies”

    That right there sums it up. An example are the Ruby’s of NV. They are completely surrounded by private ranching with most of the decent trailheads not assessable. Unless you know who to get in touch with for gate codes through their land. Most of them don’t even live there, ranches are tax right offs. But, as I have hiked some of these trails that are hard to get to, cows are up in the high wilderness areas. Many of the stream banks are broken down due to cows, as well as the vegetation. I have come across a few forest service on horseback that questioned me about cows and their locations, very eager to move them. But this is in areas that they themself have trailhead access. Not to many government employees welcomed through private land for some reason.

    I agree with the article that the few places left are becoming fewer. This year had to be the toughest for getting private moments in the farthest reaches in the mountains. Cows, COVID and to many people posting YouTube locations of places better left in our memories.

    Great article!

    Dec 15, 2020 at 3:43 pm #3689213
    MojoRisen
    BPL Member

    @mojorisen

    Locale: I’m a pilot. Almost anywhere!

    Just as we imported cows to America. A little less beef can maybe  change the dynamics. I for one have changed my consumption. Just doing my part to leave no trace.

    Dec 15, 2020 at 4:22 pm #3689220
    Kenneth Knight
    BPL Member

    @kenknight

    Locale: SE Michigan

    There was an interesting podcast recently that dives into this general area of land use and management. It’s complicated, multi-faceted, and steeped in history all of which making decisions challenging. The podcast is called Grouse

    Dec 15, 2020 at 8:24 pm #3689260
    Karen
    BPL Member

    @granolagirlak

    We don’t need beef. We just don’t. I’m not opposed to eating beef, but it’s not a need, it’s a want. More of our 8 billion and growing can be fed on legumes than on red meat.

    I get that people who have ranched for generations love their tradition, their family story, etc. Most of them also love the land.  Times and the climate are changing and that affects us all. I’d prefer if ranchers would consider conservation easements as a way out, rather than be put out of business by subsidies being cut and economic ruin for people living a lifestyle they love. It no longer makes sense to run cattle in the desert. It never has.

    It’s not really about backpacking.

    Dec 15, 2020 at 9:20 pm #3689268
    Ryan Jordan
    Admin

    @ryan

    Locale: Central Rockies

    Dave O wrote:

    Link to that? I haven’t seen a wilderness yet that allowed ORV’s, certainly not “often”. More hyperbole.

    You can do the googling. There are existing “travel corridors” for example in Wrangell-St. Elias NP, in designated Wilderness, that allow ORV travel. I saw it myself, and at the time, was shocked. It was NPS staff riding the ORVs.

    Dec 15, 2020 at 9:30 pm #3689269
    Ryan Jordan
    Admin

    @ryan

    Locale: Central Rockies

    I’ve been charged by cows in MT and WY while backpacking. The experiences forever changed how wide of a berth I give to them. My heart rate goes up when I see them. Like covid, there’s a high chance you’re going to be ok. But the consequences of a bad encounter can probably be pretty bad. In one encounter, when the cow charged from more than 50 ft away (protecting her calf), I stumbled backward, hit my head on a rock. I thought it was over. Of course, when I fell down she stopped. Threat neutralized I guess.

    Throughout the west, there’s a handful of rogue ranchers who illegally graze on public lands because they feel it’s their right. For example, I’ve run into illegal bulls on at least half a dozen occasions. Once in Montana, the bull charged and sent my dad and I scrambling over a barbed wire fence to get away from it. Terrifying experience. The County Sherrif’s advice: “I wouldn’t go hiking when bulls are around, son.” There were explicit regulations in place prohibiting the grazing of bulls on public lands in this area.

    I once stumbled onto a pod of cows parked under a big tree, sleeping, on a March snowshoe trip in the Uintas, at night. We spooked them, and all of us (cows and people) went scrambling all different directions. Lots of screaming, mooing, hikers falling, total panic. Looking back, it makes a great campfire story but at the time, it was terrifying.

    I appreciate the focus on policies and key questions here:

    1. Grazing impacts on the environment?
    2. Extent and appropriateness of subsidies for grazing.
    3. The cow-hiker relationship and how to manage it.

    I also appreciate all that I’ve learned from those ranchers who do have a meaningful relationship with their land, and their desire to be good stewards of it.

    Dec 16, 2020 at 2:34 am #3689285
    Roger Caffin
    Moderator

    @rcaffin

    Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe

    We were at Annie Rowan Creek, well inside the huge and very rough Wollemi NP. Huge cliffs around a flat grassy creek junction. It used to be grazed and fenced, but not now, and the cattle are meant to be gone.

    So there we were on the flat grass with the tent up cooking dinner, when a stroppy young bull turned up. On the assumption “He’s just a stray bovine” we ignored him, but then he started pawing the ground, lowering his head, and making loud noises. Um …

    Blowed if I am going to be harassed by a cow (or bull). So I picked up a big stick and charged him. That slowed him down a bit, but what made him turn tail and run for cover was my yelling, very loudly, “Scotch Fillet” several times at him.

    When I got back to the tent Sue’s was laughing her head off.

    Cheers

    Dec 16, 2020 at 8:39 am #3689316
    Jerry Adams
    BPL Member

    @retiredjerry

    Locale: Oregon and Washington

    I hike in Mill Creek Wilderness in Central Oregon.  There are grazing cows all over.  When I’ve gotten near I mostly ignore them, maybe walk around them a bit, they do about the same.

    Cow pies are aesthetically displeasing, but I ignore.

    I camped at a place with cows so I sort of barricaded myself with a few branches so they wouldn’t walk on me during the night

    I was hiking on the Deschutes River and there were three herds of big horn sheep, 100+ total.  I was a bit fearful they would stampede me, but they stampeded in a different direction.

    Dec 16, 2020 at 9:34 am #3689331
    Ben C
    BPL Member

    @alexdrewreed

    Locale: Kentucky

    I feel much safer seeing cows than either dogs or horses. Horses are just so hyper and unpredictable. Dogs have a strong instinct to protect and people regularly let them loose on the trail. Dogs kill a lot more people than cows. I always feel much safer around cows.

    As a kid, I grew up working livestock and caring for dogs. My dad was a rural vet. My dad always let me walk among cows, even when I was little. I was taught to give wide berth to bulls, who are a little more aggressive. I could be around horses, but there were always serious cautions. That’s what 50 years of vet experience from my dad taught me, and it has seemed right ever since.

    Dec 16, 2020 at 3:05 pm #3689399
    Ray J
    BPL Member

    @rhjanes

    I hike regularly on some of the LBJ National Grasslands.  Which is NFS managed, not BLM.  We have a small part of one area mapped for an Orienteering event.  There are several maintained horse trails.  To my knowledge, there is a yearly “Runners” event.  I ran into three out on a “50 mile training” run just last weekend.  There is also a Mormon reenactment out there with a few hundred people who camp, wear 1800’s clothes while pushing carts on very sandy trails.  A few weeks ago there were 40 Airstream trailers parked on one of the plateau’s that the NFS has prepared for primitive camping.  During Texas deer hunting season, there are crossbow hunters, bow hunters and shotgun hunters (no blinds, no deer feeders allowed).  There are also controlled burns (none happened this year as conditions were not right).  They also run cattle in there on the grasslands.  This past spring there were 450 placed on the one area I hike.  I’ve made an acquaintance of a NFS Volunteer whose ranch is just off one of the closed roads next to the Grasslands. Picture Sam Elliot and you have this guy!  He rides his horses around but also runs an ATV to put out smoldering camp fires and such.  So this past spring with all the cattle, when I’d hike near them, they got up and ran off.  I was surprised to even find them down in some heavily forested areas.  The volunteer was laughing as he was telling me how the rancher who PAID to put them in there, didn’t “get the mix right”.  Too many “young” cows which have a tendency to wander and wander far.  The volunteer was laughing about how in the world that rancher was ever going to get some of those cows out of the canyons!  The NFS redid the water troughs for the animals.  When the cows were in there, the area right around the troughs was torn up, but it recovered quickly (a month or two, I park at one of them).

    So, lots of equestrians, hikers, trail runners, campers, bow hunters during deer season and yes every few years, a few hundred cows on the piece I hike on.  Here is an example of NFS land being used by a lot of different groups, cows included.

    Dec 16, 2020 at 6:19 pm #3689425
    Ray J
    BPL Member

    @rhjanes

    I should have also pointed out about the cattle, it is for a short period of time.  Like 4 or 5 months.  Then they are out.  If they get a controlled burn, then no cattle on that section for something like a year.  The NFS has also gone in and removed invasive plants, namely cedar trees.  They cut them, pile them up and let them sit for a few months drying.  Then they get the brush fire trucks out there and light a match on the piles.  They are attempting to replicate nature.

    Dec 16, 2020 at 6:55 pm #3689432
    owareusa.com
    BPL Member

    @bivysack-com-2-2

    Locale: East Washington

    “You can do the googling. There are existing “travel corridors” for example in Wrangell-St. Elias NP, in designated Wilderness, that allow ORV travel. I saw it myself, and at the time, was shocked. It was NPS staff riding the ORVs.”

    I googled a bit. The first things that comes up is this BPL article. There may be some inholdings that require vehicle access, but you still haven’t show that ORV’s are Often in wilderness areas. Even the trail maintenance crews carry crosscut saws instead of chain saws. You can get a ticket for building a 3 rock cairn.

    I have no quarrel with requiring grazing permittees to clean up their act. There is one locally that is troubled greatly by the wolves moving back in and loses dozens of cattle per year, which is followed by several wolves being killed in response. I would like to see the agencies find that ranch other grazing opportunities  away from the difficult to manage roadless wolf country.

    Multiple use lands are, well, multiple use. A higher beneficial use of public lands was seen as one that could support people’s survival- feed and cloth them. Recreation was a good thing too, but not at the expense of peoples making a living. National Parks were for that sort of thing.

    Dec 16, 2020 at 7:04 pm #3689434
    Bruce Tolley
    BPL Member

    @btolley

    Locale: San Francisco Bay Area

    St. Elias NP, in designated Wilderness,

    If it is inside the National Park, it is not under the jurisdiction of the Wildnerness Act nor it it managed by the USFS is it???

    Dec 16, 2020 at 7:07 pm #3689437
    Ryan Jordan
    Admin

    @ryan

    Locale: Central Rockies

    Good question Bruce, there are a number of designated Wilderness areas inside National Parks that are designated and managed as Wilderness under the land management jurisdiction of the NPS.

    An example “down here” is the Olympic Wilderness inside Olympic National Park.

    The Wrangell-St. Elias Wilderness, I think, is the largest designated Wilderness in the US (10M acres), and if I recall, exists entirely inside the NP.

    Of course, there are non-Wilderness portions of these parks as well – this is where the road and building infrastructure exists.

    Dec 16, 2020 at 8:00 pm #3689445
    whoisthisguy
    BPL Member

    @sleeping

    Locale: The Cascades

    “Extent and appropriateness of subsidies for grazing.”

    I think we need to look at subsidies broadly, including this one, and rethink them with the benefit of the general population as the guiding principle instead of the benefit of corporations and other business interests.

    Dec 16, 2020 at 8:32 pm #3689448
    Bruce Tolley
    BPL Member

    @btolley

    Locale: San Francisco Bay Area

    @ Ryan, I would think if it is in the NP, then it is not under the Wilderness Act and the Dept of Interior and NPS and motorized vehicles might not be prohibited.

    @ Doug, Yup.  I would not put subsidies for grazing on marginal land at the top of my list of things to fix.  The dirt cheap oil leases on land that have not changed for 40 or 50 years would be near the top.  Next would probably be the subsidization of water for agro-business or increased urbanization, like Las Vegas going after aquifiers near Great Basin NP, or the extended Cal Water project building new canals to send northern Sierra water to water the SoCal desert towns.

    Cheers

    Dec 16, 2020 at 8:36 pm #3689449
    Ryan Jordan
    Admin

    @ryan

    Locale: Central Rockies

    @btolley the way I understand it is that the Wilderness Act authorizes any land management agency to manage designated Wilderness, as long as they do so according to the guidelines and principles of the Act. Thus, BLM/NPS/USFS can be the land manager of designated Wilderness if the Wilderness lands fall under their management jurisdiction.

    I wonder what would happen if a private landowner (like Ted Turner) got some of their land approved to be designated as Wilderness?

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