Your dream layering setup for a week in a cold rain?

Thanks again, everyone, for the continued input. To answer some questions, update, and pose a couple of new questions:

1) The longest trip will be 8 days in Sarek NP, Sweden. Our route will have several river crossings. The other trips, which will be 3-4 days each will be in more coastal areas of Norway (Lyngen Alps; Senja; Rago NP; Nærøyfjorden; Folgefonna NP). Lyngen Alps and Folgefonna will be on or immediately adjacent to glaciers for multiple days, so this is where we fully expect snow at some point. Some of our other travels will also be partially off-trail with light scrambling.

2) We will definitely wear rain pants. My descriptions of what we had for rain pants in the original post was completely off-base (don’t ask me how or why). No Marmot PreCips; rather she has an older Arcteryx Gore Tex Paclites of some sort; I have a Montbell Versalite. However, we’re thinking that given the long duration we’ll be out and our off-trail plans, that we probably need to upgrade to a Gore-Tex 3-layer option. The Versalites just don’t seem like they would stand up to much abuse, nor be warm enough. But 3-layer is heavy and expensive (I use 3-layer in Ecuador, but these needed to be replaced). Feedback on this?

3) We have gone ahead and ordered EE Torrid Apexs to replace the Montbell down.

4) Given the likely need to replace the outer layers, I don’t think we will have the budget to replace the R1s. They have served us well anyway.

5) To replace the Outdry jackets with something with better venting and greater durability, I’ve started narrowing in on the Montbell Storm Cruiser. I don’t see much mention of this jacket around these parts, but the comments I do see elsewhere are always positive. Anyone have experience with this jacket? I’ll take a look at the Rab Flashpoint, too.

6) Footwear remains a bit of a conundrum for us, I’ll admit, and the disparity of opinions on this thread reinforce why this is a hard decision to make. More information on our setup: She has always used a lighter Gore-Tex boot whereas I have comfortably made the transition to the wool sock, Gore-Tex sock (as needed), Salomons I mentioned above (also with an insulated footbed in colder environments). For me, this worked very well on 5 days in the Hornstrandir area of Iceland, which is pretty wet country and had some sizable snow patches. For river crossings, including a wide (1/4 mile) but shallow glacial outflow crossed right at the tideline, we used wool socks inside water shoes.  In hindsight, I should have just taken off the Gore-Tex socks, and plowed through with a separate pair of wool socks and the Salomons. However, our Iceland travels were generally either on trail or across grassy terrain. In Norway/Sweden, our off-trail will be much rockier (one place we’re going has been described as ‘talus hell’), and will include some time on glaciers. For my Ecuador glacier fieldwork, I use La Sportiva Nepal Evos which are great on ice, but less than ideal for the trail. For our glacier travels on this trip, we are going with Scarpa Ribelle HDs, which seem like a perfect hybrid of light mountaineering (warm and burly) and traditional hiking boot. First use this past weekend (7 miles, on trail) proved them to be quite comfortable and cozy warm. But they are heavy (3 lbs, 1 oz for the pair)! I’m tempted to just use these on all the trips (Sarek included), even those without ice crossings. But the weight! Decisions, decisions.

Thanks again for indulging me with this discussion.  I think I just have a bad gear habit. Won’t have any retirement savings, but we’ll have nice gear (and good memories) if we have to live wild, I suppose.

I have a  cheap pair of non breathable rei rain pants. They’re a bit heavy but definitely do not wet out. my legs don’t sweat especially in cold temps. ymmv. As such, I don’t need evengt/gore for pants.

I wonder if you can’t keep your boots dry by wearing event gaiters and removing the b oots on the few major crossings.

@mapguy23-2

It may be less physiological cost to carry the heavy boots on your back and wear light shoes on your feet than it is to use one pair of heavy footwear for an entire trip.

Of course this calculation is dependent upon the proportion of time you will spend geared up with crampons.

Loads on the feet exert a physiological cost 5-7 times that of that carried on the torso.  So, wearing your 900g shoes instead of  wearing a 1400g set of mountaineering boots is physiologically like saving 2500g to 3500g of back-carried weight,  in equivalence.

subtract the actual extra weight of the carried boots and you at least get a ‘free’ 1kg, at the expense of finding room for your boots in your pack.

someone please check the maths, but this is the reason why UL fetishises light footwear over any other item.

“Fetishizes” is kind a of a silly term here. Many people prefer one thing or another in our packs or on our bodies. No magic involved.

Many of us prefer some type of shoe to some type of heavy boot because we get fewer blisters, fewer toenail issues, and less weight to lift with each step. It’s not all that complicated. No math necessary.

Sean, that’s a somewhat ridiculous proposal. Now a hiker is carrying TWO sets of shoes. Perhaps you’re being satirical? fair enough if so.

What’s wrong with carrying 2 sets of shoes?
I’ve been known to wear my light boots up to the point where I need crampons and swap over and my light boots then become my camp shoes. I simply couldn’t contemplate walking 12 or 15 klicks in my plastic doubles. Ditto when my trips involve a combination of walking and skiing

I have, on occasion, used trail runners with some kind of sock system and then brought a pair of NEOS over shoes if I know I’m going to be crossing snow/slush. It’s a better option than bringing a totally different pair of boots in my experience.

well, perhaps I misunderstand the op. are they planning to walk in plastic doubles for this trip? or are they contemplating something more like Keen light boots rather than trail runners?

Hi Jeff,

Sounding like conditions i face fairly regularly, I was reading this thread with interest, but when i read of your glacier work in Ecuador, being based in Quito myself, i knew i had to reply. I’ve been undertaking lightweight mountain adventures here for a number of years and still return regularly after prolonged cold and wet weather thinking, ‘that was damn tough’! and wondering how i could improve my gear to make things easier.

My normal feet setup is lightweight trail runners (inov-8 roclites) with darn tough socks. I always carry goretex waterproof socks but they’re almost always used as a camp sock for wet shoes rather than on the move. I’ve found when its cold and wet, more so at altitude, shoes just won’t dry, but with a decent wool sock and as long as i remain on the move, my feet tend to be ok. Neoprene is another alternative, though i’ve had very cold feet when at rest using that system (sealskins). I’ve also used waterproof trail runners which, though tending to get just as wet as non waterproof setups, do provide a bit more insulation in cold/snowy conditions. They don’t dry, but as mentioned, neither do my breathable shoes in those conditions. Thick fleece socks work wonders once inside a shelter. I would be reluctant to use heavy mountaineering boots for a trip like that, particularly if its not your usual setup, but if you’ll be spending significant time on glaciers i suppose either carrying boots or using something more substantial than trail runners (though perhaps not as heavy as Evos) could be warranted…

I also use a Columbia Featherweight which has been ok in such conditions – breathability is less of a concern in cold wet weather, it doesn’t wet out (much), but i regularly find holes in it from brush when off trail. I, personally, wouldn’t prioritize replacing that for your trip. Waterproof over gloves/mitts/plastic bags/showa etc are essential. I’ve just bought a pair of Montane Dynamo waterproof trousers (approx. 200g), hoping that the 40D fabric will hold up better than the lighter weight trail running waterproof pants i’ve been unsuccessfully using for the last few years. I use reasonably heavyweight rab polartec long johns underneath (excellent in such conditions) and don’t carry any ‘dedicated’ walking trouser (so complete leg system consists of shorts, long johns and water proof trousers – i sleep in the long johns too, if they’re not wet).

I would echo others in the idea of a two-fleece system, or a fleece and active/synthetic insulation system rather than down. That being said, i haven’t actually tried newer forms of synthetic active insulation, and here in Ecuador use fleece as a moving mid layer and a down jacket over the top in camp. It works ok, but when things are really cold and wet i often dream of trying something like a nano air or alpha direct to provide more versatility.

A few, random and probably obvious, final thoughts: It’s often very difficult to stay comfortable in those conditions, and i find that a degree of suffering in the day is sometimes inevitable, which can then be remedied in camp, with dry insulation, food and so on. That said, different people have different tolerances to being cold, feeling wet, and so on… I’ve also found that hiking with partners of different speeds is another important factor that needs thinking about – if you’re moving slower than normal (and one of you probably will be), consider taking an additional upper layer.  Carrying additional socks doesn’t help in my experience  – just another permanently wet pair to carry about – one pair for active use, one pair for in camp, and waterproof for ‘camp shoes’ backup…

Have a great trip, and i’d love to hear more about your work here sometime.

Richard

“Sean, that’s a somewhat ridiculous proposal. Now a hiker is carrying TWO sets of shoes. Perhaps you’re being satirical? fair enough if so.”

No, I was being scientific.  The OP stated that he was contemplating wearing heavier boots for the entire walk just because he has to use them for some glacier traverses  (for I presume crampon fitting).  In the instance that most of your walking is on trail and some of your walking is on ice it is less physiologically costly to carry specialist boots in your pack, and wear lightweight trail runners, than it is to wear boots for the entire duration of a walk.

This seems counter-intuitive but studies suggest that it is between 5-7 times more physiologically costly to wear weight on the feet than it is on the back.

So, 500g is the weight difference described by the OP with his lightweight mountaineering boots (Scarpa Ribelle HDs)  and the Salomon trail runners he normally wears.

In physiological terms, this 500g (17.5 oz) of extra footwear weight is like carrying between 2.5 to 3.5 kg (7.7 lbs) of extra weight on the back.

Therefore, it makes sense to consider carrying heavy specialist footwear until it is needed and wear lightweight footwear for the rest of the walk.

If you wish to lose weight from your overall setup, losing weight from footwear is the most efficient means, as weight here is disproportionately related to the physiological cost of walking.

Addit: references

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00140138608968276

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/6489316/

https://journals.physiology.org/doi/abs/10.1152/jappl.1969.27.5.687

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/14964502/

No, I was being scientific.  The OP stated that he was contemplating wearing heavier boots for the entire walk just because he has to use them for some glacier traverses  (for I presume crampon fitting).  In the instance that most of your walking is on trail and some of your walking is on ice it is less physiologically costly to carry specialist boots in your pack, and wear lightweight trail runners, than it is to wear boots for the entire duration of a walk.

I fully agree about 2 pairs of footwear.

Just some personal experience (2-4 day trips in European Alps in Summer that have technical sections):

whenever a part of my trip requires mountaineering boots and crampons I can either hike all the time in them or in my usual trail runners with boots attached to my backpack

last year I started carrying boots on my back until they are needed and wearing lightweight trail runners, and it feels so much better, I’m not going back

Well, the OP mentions hiking in some snow adjacent to glaciers; I missed the part about needing crampons on plastic glacier boots. Serious climbing on glaciers would change things.

I meant to add this earlier (and my apologies if it was mentioned already): Bring lots of socks. Socks are fairly light, and nothing can add more comfort for the weight than a nice, clean, dry pair of socks. It is also extremely difficult to dry socks on rainy days.

Rain will not keep you warm unless you layer with socks. Hats are nice as well, but cold rain is sometimes not as conducive to hot showers in the mountains.

I’d stay home, or fly south to a sunny beach.