Your dream layering setup for a week in a cold rain?

“This has served us pretty well, including an somewhat wet August week in Iceland ..”

Seems like any new system would risk performing less well that your field tested system.

I love my Patagonia R1 hoody in winter and spring in the Sierra Nevada either by itself or over a wool base layer.

The one weak point in your current kit might be the precip pants.  Years ago, I had a precip parka that delaminated after two seasons of use. Perhaps Marmot has improved the product since then.

I personally wouldn’t bring any rain jacket that breathes. I would go for a Lightheartgear jacket or similar with pit zips.

I would switch the down jacket for some ‘active’ insulation, like a Pat Nano Air. The characteristics that allow you to wear that piece during exertion are the same that allow your layers underneath to slowly dry when you stop. Putting a down puffy over a damp base layer just pushes the water out into the down, making it useless. I like to “wear my clothes dry” (well, ‘like’ might be too strong a term, lol), sadly using body heat to do the job.

Im a bit surprised by how little actual wet-resistant insulation you are considering. Rain just above freezing is a very challenging scenario.

Base-layers?
Personally I’d be swapping down for synthetic and adding in a little extra core insulation, a fleece polo or vest comes to mind

I agree with the previous two comments. I would replace the down with a thicker fleece, maybe to go along with the thinner fleece. Layering in that way works well in those kind of conditions (make sure the outer fleece fits loosely over the top). I would also have a hood on it. That’s too many hoods for my taste, but you aren’t going to get rid of the Patagonia R1. Having two fleece sweaters also adds flexibility and redundancy (if one of your fleece sweaters just won’t get dry, you at least have the other one).

Make sure you have good gloves and a nice fuzzy hat. These sorts of conditions are common where I’m from. They are challenging. If the temperature drops, and it is snowing on you (or just windy and cold) than down is nice to have, as it can provide more warmth for the weight. With just fleece you might, at worse, be a bit chilly. But for day after of cold, wet rain, you can’t beat a bunch of fleece. You don’t want to be in the opposite situation (too much down, not enough fleece for the rain). That is downright dangerous.

A couple of quick dry synthetic or fleece balaclavas are nice when everything is wet. They scrunch up to nothing and are so useful.

AND your feet as they will be WET!  No GORE-TEX/GTX hiking boot or shoe will be 100% effective keeping your feet dry. Select lightweight shoes with breathable, non-absorbent and non-waterproof uppers that will dry “quickly” and use a light weight sock, waterproof sock, plastic bags or VBL’s as a combination over the sock. You will end up with DAMP socks …NOT SOAKING WET socks.

I would use a Stearns Float Coat as the core of my system.  The closed cell foam insulation retains its insulating value when wet.

It is kind of heavy but I also use it as a sleep pad and a rain coat so part of that weight is offset.

I get wet underneath from condensation but I’m always wet from the crotch up from sweat or condensation anyway so nothing new for me.

If you have a system that keeps you dry and warm I’d stick with it.  I’m envious.

https://i.ebayimg.com/thumbs/images/g/HV8AAOSwC~pgMVYe/s-l225.webp

I strongly disagree. Unless, your doing continuous over the ankle creek/stream crossings. With long term sustained mucky as heck freezing cold rain, you want to have a good pair of GTX shoes or boots. The last thing you want to do is create a wicking action of cold water from the ground through your shoes, to your socks, to your pants/base layer (if worn) to your skin, for all out possible hypothermic reaction once you decide to stand still.

I agree on fleece

My 2 cents: Did 2 weeks of hiking in northern Sweden August 2019. I did have 5 days of continuous rain. A Shakedry rain jacket really made the difference for me + lightweight goretex gloves + buff. Lightweight shoes did dry out overnight for me. Hiked in a lightweight fleece, did the job. Note that hiking is not too vigorous there, in my mind, compared to trekking the alps for example, and it’s also typically colder so I would not be too worried about sweating…

I agree with Simulacra about the gore tex boots. Unless you’re doing over the top stream crossings, gore tex in combination with Event gaiters that come up on your calf can indeed stay dry in those conditions. And a higher gaiter allows crossing not too deep streams and puddles as well.

I can imagine carrying down for use in camp and mornings when it isn’t raining or even in your tent.

And how about a Merino layer?

I don’t agree with the “you’re going to be wet all through your body and feet so get used to it” notion. When the op went before, was he continually wet? Or did he and she manage to stay realtively dry with their gear?

Your current kit looks fine, except keep the Montbell down jacket stuffed in your pack and use only for stationary breaks or at camp, and use an active insulation jacket over your Patagonia R1 when on the move like a Patagonia Nano Air or Arc’teryx Proton FL or Rab VR Summit.

However, if your Montbell down jacket does not fit well over your R1 + active insulation jacket, then you might want to consider a dedicated lightweight belay jacket like the Patagonia DAS Light or Arc’teryx Nuclei FL jacket to layer over your R1 + active insulation jacket during stationary periods.

Also, a synthetic lightweight belay jacket like the DAS Light or Nuclei FL is better at retaining warmth and drying quicker if it happens to get wet.

Surprised no one has brought up Gore-Tex socks. I’ve had lots of success and cold and wet conditions pairing them with liners and GTex footwear. Keep in mind however that if you get Gore-Tex boots wet, they will just stay wet forever. The benefit is that at least your feet will be a little warmer.

I would swap the down jacket for something like an enlightened equipment Torrid Apex.

I was going to mention the torrid apex. But then I’m uncertain if it’s much warmer than a Patagonia Nano Puff. If not, it could still be a piece to take, but, for me, who runs cold, it would not be warm enough for cold, wet evenings at camp. I understand that the Torrid was for Ryan in his review. Yes, in combination with other layers, but all of that begins to get heavy in comparison with a single down jacket.

I’ve used a Nano Puff for years.

Thanks everyone for your thoughts and advice thus far. I very much welcome additional input. We had a chance to give our setup a run-through this week with an overnight off the Superior Hiking Trail. High teens last night, but after morning snow-showers yesterday (before we set off), dry and mostly calm conditions. Base layer (a Smartwool Merino 250) plus the Arc’teryx Squamish was more than enough for me while we were moving across gentle terrain in low 30s yesterday afternoon, and she was warm with an REI synthetic base layer and the Patagonia R1. Last night around camp definitely required base layer, R1, down puffy (a heavier one than the Montbell, which I normally wouldn’t take overnight) and a thicker Gore-Tex shell. And, note to self, need to send in the sleeping bag for a down overfill.

Some of the points raised actually match things we already have/do, including fleece heck gaiter (her) and waterproof gloves. Actually, a lesson from Iceland there, thin liner gloves covered by $10 waterproof rubber fisherman’s gloves is great when its wet. If the hands start to sweat, off come the gloves. When they get cold, back on they go. A good solution for wet 40s to 50s, anyway. Also, in colder, damp conditions I typically use (and did in Iceland) Gore-Tex socks over wool socks, inside a nice light pair of Salomon XA Pro 3Ds, with separate water shoes for any deeper water crossings.  This has worked very well for me.

The Montbell down was indeed only for stationary, in-camp usage and does get packed with my sleeping bag. However, after thinking through what you’ve written, I think it has been a bad decision to rely on this in wet climates as my main stationary middle layer. A synthetic definitely seems like a safer bet for Scandinavia. I also do glacier research in Ecuador, the ultimate in endless cold, windy, snizzle, and I though I’ve never had an oopsie, I think bringing down the way I do for stationary work on/around the ice has probably been too risky. So, time to think about a couple of new jackets for her and me.

The EE Torrid Apex certainly is getting some good love here, and I’ve read the BPL review posted last summer. The Nunatak Skaha Apex also sounds like a possibility, if paired with a shell, based on the State of the Market report posted a couple of years ago. The Patagonia Micro Puff and the Arc’teryx Nuclei AR also scored highly there in the Inclement Weather scenario. Thoughts on this question from your own experiences?

Finally, the Columbia shell has been great – except for the lack of pit zips. If we were to replace those, any specific recommendations you would suggest for the long duration damp? I have some heavier items that work very well in Ecuador, but horses generally carry things to base camp not me, and I don’t think I want to carry those on my own back for a week!

Thanks all (and apologies for the novella).

In cold weather, I don’t tend to sweat when backpacking, even when climbing over a pass. I mean temps in the 40’s and lower. So, with an event shell, I don’t sweat out in these temps and find I don’t need pit zips.

Others will disagree! in any case, they seem far less necessary than in higher temps.

I guess the answer depends on whether you recall sweating a lot while in motion on your last trip?

The Patagonia R1 is a relatively slow drying piece compared to a regular Polartec 100 weight fleece.

Several years ago there were some excellent threads on cold wet layering.  One poster spoke well about the benefits of Polartec thermal pro fleece as well.

How about a Brynje mesh base layer (polypro) with Polartec 100w fleece over that?  The polypro will get stinky but I think that might be a good base/mid layer for the conditions you describe.

Cotton long Johns, wool sweater, jeans, trash bag for a parka

I use several layers of fleece for the body and neoprene socks on the feet (3mm with liners as the first layer). The following … was very helpful.

http://toesalad.com/articles/minimalist-footwear-backpackers-shoulder-seasons/

I never changed my shoes when crossing the rivers. Thick woolen socks in the sleeping bag to dry the feet well. We did have relatively stable weather that year

(sarek sept. 2018)

Where exactly are you going? I think you will see that it is going to rain a lot more than you think and depending on route, you may find that in addition to numerous river crossings and broken bridges you’ll come across more bog than you have ever seen before.

I thru-hiked the Nordkalottleden from Kvikkjokk to Kautokeino (Nordkalottruta in norwegian) last summer and it rained every day during the six weeks it took except (of course…) for some resupply days in villages enroute. Winter 2019-2020 also had a record amount of snow, which then lasted well into July-August until it melted and flooded the path so Goretex liner on shoes wasn’t really useful at all. Feet got wet and stayed wet for the duration of the hike. Also the liner eventually broke anyway after about 80 km. However I don’t think it’s a big deal whether your shoes have the liner or not. It’s so damp anyway. I would pack foot cream like Helosan instead, because your feet will be wet unless you mostly hike in well established trails like Kungsleden.

I recommend you keep your set as is, but throw away the rain pants. Despite all the rain and flood I did not use and would not use rain pants. I had Gamma LT pants and they were perfect in every situation. I had merino base layer under them when it got really nasty and dry fleece pants for the camp. Rain pants would have been uncomfortable and would not have prevented getting wet anyway. Save the weight and leave them home.

I also had a down jacket and it fared well under shell and in camp. If you do take a down jacket, I think you could leave both the Squamish and the fleece home and invest in some active insulation, like Proton FL Hoody or similar. That might be a warmer option in September.

Sounds like perfect conditions for a Dryarn baselayer with a Paramó piece like the Enduro jacket on top and a pair of Paramó full zip pants on the bottom.

The conditions you describe sound a lot like conditions that folks who participate in the Bob Marshall Wilderness Open face.  Temps 20-60; precipitation likely- snow or rain; lots of fords and snow covered passes- so your feet are alway wet (and cold).

Everyone uses something a little different, but for feet the mainstays are breathable trail runners with thick wool socks.  If it’s particularly cold or slogging though a lot of slush then a pair of thin neoprene socks (NRS Hydroskin 0.5) work well.

For rain gear I like a light 3 layer jacket, currently a Rab Flashpoint- at one time the lightest 3 layer jacket (maybe still????).  I would NOT ditch rain paints in cold weather.  We made a huge error one year when it started to rain (mid-high 30’s) one year, donned jackets, but not pants.  We were fine for about an hour and then our pants got soaked through.  It continued to rain and the temp stayed in the 30’s, if we stopped for even a couple of minutes we were severely chilled.  No doubt the carotid arteries being exposed to cold/wet chilled us better than a walk in freezer would have.  The next morning we faced the exact conditions, everyone donned rain pants and we were golden.  Don’t forget hands- MLD eVent mitts (thoroughly seam sealed) work great.

I agree that choosing Climashield APEX over down is a better bet (in those conditions) and also agree that a better moving layer than the R1 is available.  Their Capilene Thermal weight is one; if you can find one- the Nano Air Light is a dandy.  I also like Kuiu’s Peloton fleece hoody- a mere 5 oz and does a good job of moving moisture and drying quickly.

Yeah, rain pants seem advisable for sure. Why won’t they keep you from getting wet?

The op didn’t menti9n a ton of river crossings. That makes a difference.

Not sure if you’re commenting on my post, but if it’s cold I strongly recommend rain pants- without you risk wetting out an area that is critical in maintaining internal temperature.

My point on the river crossings just emphasizes the need for fast drying/warm layers in wet/cold conditions. Rain can get you as wet as a river crossing, just takes a little longer :)