Winter noob needs advice on shovel and boots

No expert here.  Been backpacking twice in the snow.  Only once was it deep enough to build the kitchen and sculpt around the tent, but I remember sitting in the door of my tent and dangling my legs as I put on my boots.

We had metal shovels and I’d be more confident with that.  Lots of experienced northerners here to teach us both more.  I’m looking forward to a Snow camp trek with my son’s BSA troop if we get enough in the local mountains this winter.

There is a YouTube video was just telling someone about by Shug, who hammock camped near -40F. I’d postpone if forecasts were below +10 F, but I’m looking at a 0F quilt for my next winter camping purchase.

Don’t go light on a shovel if you plan on using it. For snow camping I use a black diamond shovel with a metal blade and extendable handle. Heavy but it works.

I do own an arva. I use it for mountaineering in summer when I probably won’t need it for more than a couple of minutes while making a platform in corn snow. It’s light but it’s also a POS. A tradeoff I am sometimes willing to make. The blade is to terrible and it barely stays attached to the handle.

The boot situation is tough. Most insulated boots are not made for hiking. They are for walking around the city or shoveling the driveway. I use mountaineering boots that are insulated, but they suck for walking.

@ Don. There have been lots of threads here about overboots (see the 40 Below web site) and VPLs to augment trail runners.

If you want to ease your way in without spending too much money at the beginning, I would recommend a pair of mid top snow shoeubg boots and bring some chemical foot warmers. I have a old pair of TNF snow shoe boots with a gaiter hook that work fine in the Sierra Nevada where for most outings below tree line it never gets much below 20 degrees during the day.  If your feet get cold, you might look at Sorels but I find them a bit harder to snow shoe in since my low volume foot starts slipping.

If you do not need a shovel for avalanche rescue, you could probably get by with the lightest metal bladed BCA or BD shovel REI sells.  If you plan on building snow kitchens or snow caves, look for one that has a handle that extends.  Our Sierra snow often turns to cement that the plastic blades just bounces off of.

I am new to winter camping and bought some altra lone peak neoshell mids. They are a half size up and I plan on using them with super thick socks, I tried on the smartwool heavy cushion trekking socks and they fit well. I’m curious how cold I can take these, curious about both while hiking and while sitting around. I guess I will have to just try. I know a lot of people just use uninsulated waterproof boots for winter hiking. I suppose I could always buy a much larger pair and fit multiple pairs of socks (size medium, large, and xl) socks and use that for colder weather when needed. Altra shoes are the only shoes that fit me well and I only wear shoes with no heel or arch, so going out and buying insulated boots is not really an option for me.

I have tried on the 40 below overboots and I didn’t really like that system. I also have some outdoor research gaiters that go over the toe and have some neoprene, that could also help supplement  warmth.

I might also try using neoprene diving socks as a member named Eric on here has recommended several items.

Also I looked up information on that camp shovel, it appears that the shovel was created to be the bare minimum accepted for ski mountaineering racing, but it’s actually a terrible shovel. It’s something you carry to satisfy rules and never plan on using.

If you are skiing or snowshoeing, that may dictate your boot choices. Temperatures will have some influence too. Saying winter or snow covers a wide range and +20f is different on the extremities than -20f. If you walk in,  conditions can change,  requiring snowshoes or skies to get back and influence shelter choices too.

That SoCal snow gets hard and icy. Metal blade.

Dale, the issue in my mind is how to keep my feet comfortable in variable temperatures. Were I want to go winter camping it could be deep snow and 50 degrees or deep snow and 15 degrees (during the day, lower at night). Do people just go with warm boots for the lowest expected temperatures and deal with hot and sweaty feet on warmer days? Is it worth owning winter boots with two different levels of insulation for different expected temperatures? I tend to get both hot feet and cold feet easily while other people seem to be able to use insulated footwear in warmer temperatures and be comfortable.

Hi Don. The question about winter boots is pretty broad actually, and like most equipment discussions, the answer is “depends”, with a wide variation depending on where you are going, snow and ice conditions, etc. I recommend taking a winter training course where you can learn a lot more about you need and how to do it safely. I use Salomon Deemax 2 mid-height boots with thinsulate for my simple snowshoe trips. They are very comfortable but are too lightweight for mountaineering and crampon conditions. Not a big investment and perfectly comfortable when I need a warm and waterproof boot.

Justin, For snow camping in the Sierra Nevada below tree line, I found the classic winter boot, the Canadian made Sorels much too warm. Sweaty feet make for cold feet in my opinion.

I switched to a pair of TNF snow shoeing boots with thinsulate insulation. As long as I am moving during the day, my feet are warm enough. At the end of the day, I insert chemical foot warmers and stand on a cut piece of blue closed cell foam.  (Same drill at breakfast, stand on the blue pad) Sometimes at camp I switch into down booties to wear around the snow kitchen but they are hard to walk through power in.

:-((

(I also found that adding additional pairs of socks actually made my feet colder.  Like with ski or snowboarding boots, I think if the boot has insulation, you should not need to add more socks for insulation.

Thanks for the input. I think I will go with a light, metal bladed snow shovel.

As for boots, I definitely am not looking at mountaineering boots. I’m thinking of a lightweight, gtx boot with some insulation.  I’m imagining using these for 1-3 night winter trips. I’m aware of the overboots but I guess i don’t really understand how the bottom is. Is it another “boot” that you slide your whole shoe/boot into? Or is there no bottom so it just covers the top and you’re still walking on your shoe/boot’s sole? If you are walking on the overboot’s sole I wouldn’t want to hike in these. If just for warmth in camp that sounds fine.

My current day hiking set up in snow is trail runners, injinji liners, darn tough wool sock and then finally rocky gore tex sock if it’s slushy. I can wear microspikes or my K10 hiking crampons with this. It’s worked well but it’s only been for day hiking in the snow in mild conditions. Low’s in the upper 20’s in the morning and very minimal postholing. I don’t know if this set up would work for extended days where I’m experiencing much more slush and water. Plus, I’m not sure how warm it would be at night hanging around camp.

The Salomon Deemax 2 mid-height boots that Cameron mentioned is kind of what I imagined but maybe what I have is fine. Like I said, I have no experience. I do eventually want to start snowshoeing too if that makes a difference. Again, not really knowing I guess I’d lean towards Northern Lites.

Don

I got rid of my Northern Lites and went back to MSR Denali Evos. The Northern Lites were very light but did not have enough crampon IMO for traversing, walking the up and down, and occasional side stepping on my snow shoe routes. If you go to the Northern Lites website,  they seem designed for racing on flattish terrain.

In regard to 40 Below Overshoes, I almost went that direction. But then I realized most of my trips are group trips that involve parking at a Caltrans SnoPark lot and then walking on roadway, crossing railway tracks, etc to get to the trailhead sometimes over slippery black ice.  The 40 Below overshoes have a nylon bottom but assume you are always wearing microspikes or some other snow traction device. Since most of my snow camping is with either Sierra Club or Boy Scout groups, I did not think it practical to stop the whole group while I put on my overshoes. Plus I already owned the NorthFace show shoeing boots.

Don, regarding the shovel, I would suggest buying one that has a D handle and not a T handle. The D works with mittens, whereas the T doesn’t. With gloves, they both work  fine.

A T handle on a shovel works just fine with mittens. If you are going to get a light metal shovel it won’t be that much different than a plastic one. You want something with some weight and stiffness to it.

Northern lights don’t work well outside of the flat Midwest. MSR is the gold standard for mountain use.

I do alot of winter backpacking in the Southeast mountains of NC and TN and Georgia.  We on occasion get some serious blizzards whereby snow depths on 5,000 foot ridges can approach 3 feet deep whereas in the valley 3,000 feet below it’s 6 inches.

For the last several years I’ve been carrying a Voile XLM shovel which works great preparing tent sites as I never set up directly on the snow and instead always get my tent on bare ground.  It’s impossible to use my boots to stomp down a 2 to 3 foot snow and make a level tentsite without big lumps and trenches and so I rely on my shovel to remove the stuff.

I really used my snow shovel last winter on a trip with 5 separate snowstorms.  A shovel makes site prep much easier than using your gloved hands to move snow—and gloves get destroyed too.

Boots on the other hand are always a challenge.  Keeping feet warm on a long winter trip is always a challenge too.  It’s all about the hands and feet.

For our Southeast winters I go with either Asolo Fugitive gtx boots or upgrade to my Zamberlan Vioz boots in January and Feb when conditions require better protection and stiffkness.  Others swear by Baffin or Sorel or other waterproof type boots.  I spent two winters backpacking in a pair of Sorels and while excellent in some ways, they are hell to hike in for long distances because they are clunky.

From researching I was narrowing it down to the Voile Xlm so it’s good to know it’ll do what I need.

Hey Tipi, I noticed that both those boots you mentioned are uninsulated waterproof boots. Could you tell me at what temperature do you find uninsulated waterproof boots inadequate?

First of all, I wouldn’t be camping at -20f. Short walks from a warm cabin maybe. When you walk outside and your beard freezes, Mother Nature is trying to tell you something :)

I’ve been comfortable in the teens F with Keen mids, good socks  and gaiters. Below zero is with Sorrel style boots with thick felt liners and layered socks as needed.

Wet feet in really cold temps is bad stuff. Don’t get there and carry spare socks. Frostbite can mess you up for life.

If you aren’t used to this stuff, do some day trips from a warm base camp and see how you do. I had the luxury of a family cabin in the  Cascades where we could ski and snowshoe in the forest and return to a big fire in the stove. That is a much easier way to learn.

I don’t plan on building a cave or some other type of snow shelter.

and,

Don’t go light on a shovel if you plan on using it.

The thing is, when you MOST need a shovel, you didn’t PLAN on using it.  Friends went for an day-long ski trip and got stranded for 4 days on a remote snowfield.

https://www.adn.com/alaska-news/article/skiers-rescued-harding-ice-field-hoped-their-snow-cave-wouldnt-become-tomb/2016/04/21/

Her FB avatar for the next 6 months was a snow shovel.

Our first landlady in Alaska had been widowed by an avalanche.

Fred Meyers has a decent looking aluminum snow shovel for $20.  I’d suggest taking that on your first trip and using to build a bench, dig a pit and start on a snow cave.  Consider as you use it if it would be better for you with a bigger blade, longer/shorter handle, does the T-grip work for you, etc?  Then you can compare all the many options out there with that experience as a base.

Maybe you stick with that.  But for only $20, if it lives in your car trunk all winter, it is money well spent the first time you need it.  All our family’s cars have a snow shovel, tow rope, jumper cables, warm clothes, gloves, boots, CCF pad, LED/lithium flashlights, tools, sleeping bag, food and (freezable) water in them all winter.

Some older posts on another forum report act Fred Meyers shovel as 21.8 and as 23 ounces.  Which is lighter than a many options at REI and 1/3 to 1/5 the cost.

“I’ve been comfortable in the teens F with Keen mids, good socks  and gaiters. Below zero is with Sorrel style boots with thick felt liners and layered socks as needed.”

Do you mean comfortable in the teens moving, sitting around, or both?

Good tips on the shovel and other preparedness items in the vehicle.

When I lived in Manhattan I also kept in the car an ice axe. Yes! Because when the snow plows went by they created a berm of solid ice that no shovel could penetrate. Sometimes it took 1/2 hour of work with the pick and adze to get the job done, but with only a shovel that car wasn’t going anywhere. A cheap, heavy ice axe is best. I received many an envious stare as I was chopping my way out.

Justin asks—

Hey Tipi, I noticed that both those boots you mentioned are uninsulated waterproof boots. Could you tell me at what temperature do you find uninsulated waterproof boots inadequate?

There are many insulated winter boots on the market but except for the Sorels already mentioned I don’t use insulated boots.  I have found goretex boots like Fugitives or Asolo 520s (beware!) or my gtx Zamberlans to work well in the conditions I encounter in the Southeast.

Fabric/leather combo boots do not work well when frozen solid as they shrink up and occasionally won’t allow a foot to enter—very painful to hike in until they thaw.  Full leather boots work much better in this regard, hence my use of Zamberlans.  I’ve used these boots in temps down to -10F with no problem as the goretex lining offers a sort of insulating liner to keep my feet warm enough, especially when moving.  And their leather uppers are stiff and when frozen do not shrink and offer plenty of room to get my foot inside (of course the laces are loosened and the boots spread open the night before).

In camp I carry my WM down booties.