why does capilene midweight weight more than thermal weight?

[ben .]

i’m having a hard time conceptualizing why patagonia’s capilene midweight layers weight more than the thermal weight versions.

i’m thinking about dropping my (7.2 oz) smartwool bottoms for capilene, and was surprised and confused to see that midweight weighs 6.8 oz (with 5.2 oz of polartec power grid), while the thermal weight weighs 4.7 oz (with 3.8 of power grid).

i’m guessing the difference has something to do with the purported “superior breathability” of the thermal weight version. but i’m not quite sure how to parse why.

i’m used to heavier = warmer, especially when the two weights are made up mostly of the same fabric.

(i’m not in the market for capilene tops, but they show the same phenomenon.)

thanks!

[KRS]

I have the Cap 4 (thermal weight) both top and bottoms and love it. I haven’t checked the weights but its very flexible for different temps. If its warmer just wear it by itself (very airy) as the temp drops Ill add my windbreaker while hiking to hold in the heat. I was skeptical when it first came out but now I’m sold. If its lighter buy it I would say its the most flexible for different conditions.

[rmeurant]

I would totally speculate that any difference in thermal efficiency would relate to the (thickness and morphology of) entrapped air, rather than the weight of material; the entrapped air being the main insulative agent, the material merely serving to structure the entrapment.

[Roger Caffin]

I was always under the impression that ‘thermals’ were the thin base layer, under the heavier mid-weight. Perhaps the problem lies in the name?

Cheers

[JCH]

I too have the “thermal weight” hoody and bottoms.  Love!  Them!  Here is (what I see as) the difference…

The thermal weight is a gridded fleece that is actually very thin between the grid tufts…it’s almost like little squares of fleece sewn onto a sheet of gauze-like material. The material between the tufts is so thin that when held up to the light you can easily see through it (although it is in no way transparent when worn).  The midweight is (or at least was) a more traditional uniform thickness material.

Worn by themselves, and in a breeze, the thermal weight offers very little warmth…the wind whistles right through it.  Throw a windshirt, or any other wind-resistant layer, over it and it turns quite warm indeed, and significantly more so than the mid-weight.  This equates to some of the most versatile base layers I have experienced, and I have yet to see any sign of fragility.  Highly recommended, but look for them on sale.

I do agree with Roger, the marketing nomenclature is not at all helpful.

 

[JCH]

It looks like the mid weight capilene is now also a “gridded” material, but close inspection shows a marked difference. The thermal tufts are thicker and grid sections are wider.

Thermal ^^^

Mid weight ^

[HkNewman]

“Thermal” was supposed to be just under “expedition”-wt.  Why? Thermal is just slightly lighter than expedition to (supposedly) be useful on the move.  With trapped air, the thicker grid means it’s more insulative under shells, typical insulative puffy stuff, etc…  Both will let air through without a shell obviously.

[ben .]

i can no longer post to this topic. help?

[JCH]

Ben – it’s warmer because it traps more air.  And yes, the material is completely different than your old capilene.

And FYI, I got an email containing your last post, but it does not show up in this list (perhaps because of the embedded stylesheet refs????).  Thanks WordPress!  Here is ben’s missing post copied from the email…

——————————————–

hey all

lets link to the thing itself:

midweight capilene bottoms: <div class=”ch-lm-section-header”>Materials:</div> 5.2-oz (175-g) Polartec® Power Grid™ 97% polyester (solids: 66% recycled; heathers: 33% recycled)/3% spandex with Polygiene® permanent odor control

6.8 oz

thermal weight capilene bottoms: <div class=”ch-lm-section-header”>Materials</div> 3.8-oz (129-g) Polartec® Power Grid™ fabric

Solids: 92% recycled polyester/8% spandex; heathers: 92% polyester (30% recycled)/8% spandex; both with Polygiene® permanent odor control

4.7 oz

midweight is described as “the most versatile polyester baselayer.”

thermal weight is described as “the warmest, most breathable polyester baselayer.”

i get that the thermal weight is more ‘breathable’ and wouldn’t do well in a stiff breeze. personally, i’d only ever wear these bottoms to sleep in (under a quilt) or if it’s freezing out (under pants), so its relative breathability isn’t that important to me.

the thing that i’m still confused about is how the ‘warmest’ baselayer can weight 2 oz less and have 1.4 oz less power grid fabric. where is the warmth coming from?!

i have the old cap 2 and cap 4 tops (before they changed the naming system), and love them. they are my entire layering system when walking unless it’s raining or really cold. so i’m familiar with capilene.  my cap 2 top is 5.3 oz and the cap 4 is 5.5 oz (both medium i think).

however, the new light/mid/thermal weight-style capilene shirts are weighted more like the bottoms linked above: lightweight is 3.5 oz, midweight (which i think = cap 2?) is 6.7 oz, and thermal (= cap 4?) is 5.2.

clearly something has changed in not only their nomenclature, but the design and concept beyond these things. confusing!

[ben .]

man. this forum software…..

 

[ben .]

got it. traps more air = warmer (and needs less fabric because of more minimal/breathable waffle design).

still – it’s interesting how different the weights are between the older cap/2/3/4 style and the light/mid/thermal style cap. clearly more changed than just the naming system.

i’m not even sure what cap 2 would be replaced with. ‘lightweight’ capilene seems more like cap 1, and midweight seems closer to cap 3 (?).

[ben .]

found a fairly recent topic on the “cap conversion” (including a guest appearance by JCH;), should’ve done more searching first, my bad!

i don’t dare link to it, so here it is –>

https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/which-weight-of-capilene/

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Ben

I think your real problem is that you are READING the marketing spin. Don’t. The marketing guys have no trouble believing that everything is better than average. Instead look at the measured weights and then do your own testing – by wearing the stuff.

Gridded fabrics seem to be the flavour of the month. I see no real advantages to them, and yes I have tried them. I prefer the plain fabrics. I think they are better.

Cheers

[JCH]

Instead look at the measured weights and then do your own testing – by wearing the stuff.

As usual…I agree with Roger.

Gridded fabrics seem to be the flavour of the month. I see no real advantages to them, and yes I have tried them. I prefer the plain fabrics. I think they are better.

Except in this case :)  I have used both fabric types and very much prefer the new gridded thermal weight capilene over the older versions. I find it significantly warmer (when I want it to be) and more versatile.  The reduced weight is icing.

[Roger Caffin]

I find it significantly warmer (when I want it to be)
Really? Interesting.
I haven’t bought any new thermals for a few years. Am I missing something?

Cheers

[JCH]

You may be Roger :)

I was impressed enough by the new thermal weight capilene to have replaced my old mid layers with a new zip hoody and bottoms…they are stupid expensive so you must shop around and wait for the rare deal. I recommend that you consider trying them. Everyone is different but I think these new fabrics are a clear improvement on what has come before.

[rmeurant]

Agree with JCH.

[Clifford Deakyne]

I  have an older set of Cap 4 top and bottoms (non-grid), as well as a newer set of grid fleece (Terramar) that I use mostly for down hill skiing.  I found the heavier grid fleece warmer, but the moisture management better with the older non-grid Cap 4.  It becomes a trade off as to which will perform better on a given day but both got used on my last ski trip.

[Brad Rogers]

I also like the Cap 4 (Power Dry High Efficiency) a lot, and agree that you should try one Roger.  Finding one at 50% is the only way to go as they are crazy expensive otherwise.

I also like the OR Echo shirts too, but they are on the opposite end of the spectrum as a ultra light, ultra thin baselayer.

[Author]

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