Why am I so cold?!

[Bri W]

Long post…sorry

Since January I’ve gone on 3 backpacking trips in Central California (40s-70s°), and I’ve camped about 10 times in Southern Oregon (30s-70s°). On every single trip I’ve been uncomfortably cold. I am 5’5″, 127-lbs., female. I sleep in a Snowyside bivy, fully zipped. My sleeping gear consists of an EE Enigma 20° quilt with straps, a small NeoAir Xlite, usually stacked on top of a GG thinlight, a beanie or EE Hoodlum, a pair of merino wool toe socks, rain mittens, and merino wool base layers. I started off with Patagonia Capilene baselayers, then switched to Montbell Super Merino L.W. BLs. Now I’m in Smartwool midweight BLs. with my Hoodlum. I’ve left the thinlight at home and I’m stacking my NeoAir on top of a Z-Lite Sol. I’ve tried exercising, eating a high calorie bar, and/or drinking something hot before going to bed. I’ve stuffed my feet into my backpack. On my most recent backpacking trip, I even stopped in a camp store and bought a 3+ pound fleece bag liner just to get me through the last two nights. I still froze. I find myself putting on all of my clothes including rain and wind gear and another pair of socks. Initially I had my OR Filament, now I’m bringing along my 1-pound OR Floodlight 800+ down jacket. I’ve always run cold, but I’m starting to think a sub-10 pound base weight is impossible for me because of my need for a warmer sleeping system. I’m looking at adding more down to my quilt to drop it to a 0°, switching over to a regular-sized NeoAir X Therm, and getting down pants and a warmer down jacket. All of this is extremely expensive and heavy so I’m looking for less expensive and more lightweight advice to experiment with before my High Sierra trip at the end of July. I know summer time will be hot during the day, but I’m really nervous that camp time and sleep time will be <50° and I’ll freeze. Also, I had back surgery in December and am not allowed to lift more than 25 lbs., hence my desire to keep my base weight low.

Any suggestions?

[John S.]

I think you have to try a different sleeping pad setup as you have planned but not yet tried. Also, is the bivy your only shelter?

[IVO K]

While I’m of low opinion of the NeoAir Xlite (tried it and got rid of it), when it is combined with a Z-Lite Sol it should please most people at sub-zero °F.

It seems the overall amounts of insulation deployed are quite excessive even for a female cold sleeper.

The problem is not the pad, nor the insulation. It is the body. Look into ways to change your metabolism – it will likely turn out less expensive (both in $ and weight) and much healthier than keeping on adding “stuff” to your sleep system. Poor (or restricted) blood circulation? Diet change? Fitness training and regular workouts? Some gradual cold-targeting conditioning while not hiking?

[Bob Moulder]

Hi, Bri,

Try putting the Z-Lite Sol on top of the air mat.

I tested this directly during several of my many winter (down to -6°F) kit-tweaking trips by alternating CCF on top and bottom during the course of the night. and there is zero doubt that any CCF padding should go on top. Also, in discussions with several other folks who have camped extensively in extreme/very cold environments, this observation is confirmed.

Also, it sounds as if you might be a candidate for a VBL. Many people don’t find these practical, but you might actually need one.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with sleeping in all your clothing and down jacket.

[Todd Stough]

Are you cold all over?  is it just when sleeping?

I wonder if some of your layers are too tight?  The toe socks for example?

It seems like you wear a lot of clothes plus the quilt.  Have you tried a sleeping bag to see if that seals you up better?  The foam pad on top is also better.  Can you sleep out in your yard to test it out?

I’ve never slept well on a pad, I think it is a mobility and circulation problem.  Everything sort of falls asleep from the pressure, which ever side is down.  It makes me feel cold too.

[Jennifer Mitol]

I used to be MISERABLE at night in the cold- until I got a warm pad.  I had tried stacking the lighter pad with CCF, but that did not work for me.

There is no way I would be comfortable in just a bivy and the xlite, even with the CCF at those temps.

Try an x therm or something similar in terms of R value and see what you think.  Once I splurged and got the Exped Downmat UL7 (short) I was in absolute warm sleeping heaven!

[Matthew / BPL]

Have you always been cold in these temps or is that a new thing? Could it be a low thyroid level or something like that?

also +1 on the tightness of sleeping clothes. Me feet get cold in my hiking socks at night because they are too tight. I need looser socks (or no socks) when I sleep.

[Lester Moore]

+1 on putting the Z-Lite Sol on top of the NeoAir, using an Xtherm instead of the NeoAir and using a VBL. The VBL and the foam pad on top add several degrees of comfort to my sleeping each. The nice thing about the foam on top or the VBL is that you can try both for no cost and little added weight. You can make a descent 3 oz or less VBL with two or three large trash bags heat welded together into a long sack with an iron (see BPL link below).

If the foam pad on top and/or VBL work for you, then you’re set. If not, the Xtherm is the next most economical step. If you still need more warmth, then it’s hard to beat the warmth to weight ratio of going to a 0 or 10 degree quilt compared to a 20. While you’re at it, borrow and test drive a friend’s 20F mummy bag for comparison to your 20F quilt if you’ve never used one before.

Also, another important part of your sleep system is your head insulation. If you’re using the 20-40 F version of the EE Hoodlum, then consider upgrading to the 0 – 20F version or another winter hood, or stack hoods. In testing I stacked my new EE 20-40F Hoodlum with a GooseFeet down hood and it was noticeably warmer than the Hoodlum alone.

Another thing to consider is a more wind proof and heat retaining shelter. If it’s windy, it’s warmer to have the tent structure take the brunt of the wind’s force as opposed to the side of your bivy sack. Even with a beefy tarp tent, a 10F or warmer quilt and a warmer pad, you should still find a base weight of 10 – 12 lbs easy to achieve.

https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/84398/

[Ben C]

I agree, try the ccf on top of the inflatable.  If that doesn’t work, go to an Xtherm.

I have a friend with the same problem.  He has just gone to a 0 degree bag.  It is the most weight efficient way to stay warm at night.

[Lori P]

I have a friend who, when I met her, was using some really gadawful heavy synthetic bag labeled -20F and would layer up a TON – like, never seen anyone else with six layers on. I told her to stop layering up so much and not be so paranoid. It looked to me like the layers were restricting blood flow, which makes you cold! She resisted like anything, but eventually, she borrowed my 3 lb Marmot Neverwinter (EN rated to 17F) and started to sleep in just a base layer and heavy oversocks over some clean hiking socks. She has thyroid issues, which she pegged as a part of the problem.

She also started hiking most weekends, and losing weight, and getting her diet changed — she was working on feeling better overall, not just on the trail. She changed a LOT. (Not saying this to suggest you need to, just adding it because it is another variable in the story that has something to do with it.)

She doesn’t sleep cold anymore. I’m not so sure that it wasn’t simply that she stopped believing so very firmly that she always sleeps cold. I used to do the same thing, think I would always be cold, but somehow I got to a point that I stopped obsessing about it. I’m sleeping in a midweight base layer and a quilt with about 2.5 inches of loft, and doing fine to subfreezing temps. I have a wool cap and put on liner gloves if I feel cold there. I do make sure I have a decent pad underneath.

My suggestions of things to try, some of which you already do:

• dry clothes – bring a base layer and underwear and socks that you ONLY wear to bed, change out of the day’s sweaty clothing
• DON’T use a vapor barrier unless it’s 20F or below. Your skin gives off moisture regardless of the temperature and this will trap it. Use the VBL as a last resort.
• hot water bottle – a small Nalgene with hot water in it, in a sock to keep your skin off the bottle. I use a hot water bottle when it’s very cold to pre-warm the down. Part of what can happen is someone having difficulty warming the bag up takes too long to do it, becomes convinced they are going to be cold all night, and then they fret anxiously for hours. I’ve discovered the last thing that warms up is my hips – I can feel cold for a long time, but eventually, that part of the quilt gets warm. Pre-warming it helps. Chemical packs are less effective and single use.
• Exercise — while in the bag, move around, shift arms and legs as if peddling a tiny bike. Gently, and not for more than a few minutes at a time. Sweating is not the goal, increasing blood flow to the extremeties is.
• be open to being warm. Sounds strange, but there’s this thing anxious people do – they get anxious about being anxious. And then they’re anxious anyway, and it just makes things worse. People who have bad experiences become hypervigilant and stay jumpy, keep looking for proof that it’s happening again. Being a little cold is just uncomfortable, and it’s a temporary situation. Relax, if you’re finding yourself being tense. The body changes its chemistry and circulation when you’re anxious — that fight or flight response happens whether it’s truly a survival situation or not. In this case, you’re not at risk of anything but being uncomfortably cold. I’ve found that if I go into a situation open-minded to see what happens the outcome is different than if I go expecting that some specific outcome will happen.
• have a physical if you haven’t, explaining to the doctor what’s going on. I had a guy who’d never been backpacking borrow some gear and come on a short trip. It was probably in the low 50s and I wasn’t even tucking in my quilt. Meanwhile, in the other tent, this guy was complaining for HOURS about being cold, being cold, being cold, and when I got up in the morning I found out he had worn the massive jacket he’d brought all night in addition to using the down quilt I loaned him, and sweat so darn much one of the baffles of the quilt was completely wet out — all the down was in clumps. Never seen anything like it. When we got home he went to his doctor and later told me what he had not mentioned — one, he is a type II diabetic. Two, his doctor figured out that what he thought was just eczema was a staph infection on his skin — and it was a lot more widespread than he thought! Between the two conditions I don’t doubt that his body behaves a LOT differently than most people’s do.

I personally find that since I had a full check of my hormone levels and started taking a supplement, my own tolerances of temp swings has changed as well.

Good luck. I hope you find your answer.

[Bri W]

Thanks for the responses!

My bivy is my only shelter, but I’ll be getting a tarp before the Sierra Trip. I was under the impression that a bivy would add a few degrees of warmth compared to a tent, but my last backpacking trip was vey windy so maybe that’s why I was so cold that time.

I will try putting the foam pad on top of the NeoAir tonight to test it out.

I have always slept cold, even at home. I pretty much have the heater going most months out of the year. The quilt has definitely felt warmer than my 20° Kelty mummy bag, especially now that I’ve added the straps and Hoodlum to the mix. Before, I was letting in a lot of drafts while changing positions, as I move around a lot in my sleep. EE has also recommended that I try washing my quilt, which I plan to do in a few weeks after a few more camping trips.

I am mostly cold on my back, legs, and feet. I usually am able to get to sleep okay, but I wake up throughout the night cold. My socks are very tight and my MB wool BLs were also very tight, so I’ll try warmer, looser socks and my more loosely fitted, thicker Smartwool BLs. For now, I’m keeping the down jacket on until I find a solution.

Just had a full lab work-up for my surgery and everything was within normal limits, no thyroid or circulation issue that I know of.

Not sure I’m ready for VBLs yet. Just looked them up and they sound intense! Definitely a last resort thing.

 

[Bri W]

Also, I was thinking about this last night in my tent (I’m camping for a few nights in Oregon, 50s-80s° with wind)…

I work night shifts, so I typically sleep in the heat of the day. When I camp/backpack, I switch over to sleeping at night (or at least I try with the help of a lot of Benadryl!). I’ve been a cold person for as long as I can remember, but maybe because I’m used to sleeping while it’s warm, I’m not adjusting well to normal nighttime temperatures. No idea, but just trying to think what about what else could be a factor.

I’m also in relatively good shape. I hike and bike regularly, and before my surgery I mountain unicycled and trail ran regularly.

[Ben C]

Bri,

Very tight base layers and socks could be a big part of the problem.  You’ve got to ditch those.  Take them to Goodwill.  They are the enemy of a warm night.

If you’re cold on your back (and I assume sleeping on your back) warming your pad with CCF on top of the inflatable is an obvious and easy change.

If nothing else works, try a 0 degree bag/quilt from a friend and see if that does the trick.  It won’t be that much heavier than your 20 degree.

[Erik G]

All the advice given so far is great. One other thought: Perhaps part of the issue is that you have too much layering/warmth, which causes you to sweat, then when a draft creeps through you get cold from the sweat evaporating. So you go through this too hot/too cold cycle, but you only notice the cold part since that wakes/disturbs you. This was the issue for my wife, who is about your size, and was cold at 40F with a 20F bag and all her clothes on. She switched to wearing just enough to not be cold when going to bed (base layers + socks, not tight fitting as mentioned), and has been happy ever since. So maybe less layers will help in multiple ways.

[Larry De La Briandais]

“I am mostly cold on my back, legs, and feet.”

That sounds like too cold of a pad (the CCF on top makes a BIG difference) and circulation problems.  Tight clothes, especially socks, will cause circulation problems.  And they don’t have to be very tight to cause problems.  You would be better off with no clothes than tight ones.  But, loose clothes is the obvious best answer.

” I’m used to sleeping while it’s warm, I’m not adjusting well to normal nighttime temperatures.”

That is probably a bigger part of the problem than anyone thinks.  If you can try to acclimate to cooler sleeping temps prior to a trip it might make a big difference.

 

 

[Rob P]

I would definitely try the regular size x-therm or something equivalent.  Are you getting any condensation inside the bivy?

[Bri W]

Zero condensation so far. This has been the best bivy I’ve owned so far for that reason (and I had John make it small and hot pink and purple). :)

 

[Rob P]

It’s not so small that it compresses your down quilt is it?  (BTW, I’m just trying to brainstorm, because for me, knowing I’ll be warm and cozy no matter the temp is one of my favorite things about camping/backpacking….took some trial and error though.  Want you to be warm too!)

Pink and Purple?  Sweet!

 

 

 

[Bri W]

Thanks! No it’s not in circumference. Just short and slightly narrow. No compression of the loft as far as I can tell.

[Roger Caffin]

More high-calorie dinner and a MUCH BETTER pad underneath you.

Cheers

 

[Justin Baker]

If you are camping at freezing with no snow on the ground, at what point do you have too much R value? (as in more R value wont keep you warmer).

[James holden]

Fatty protein foods … For example cliff bars wont help as much as cheese and salami

also yr 20F EE quilt is NOT 20F for the “average woman” … For men ratings you nees to knock 10F off for women … Thats roughly the gap on en-tested bags

so for women its a 30F quilt and for cold women probably less …

which means youll need the thicker hoodlum (or wear more underneath) as well

quils at their temp limits also need to be used “perfectly” … Fully buttoned up and strapped … Youll basically look like a mummy ….

and while an xlite might be fine for men, the same temp gaps between the sexes apply to pads as well … Warmer pad

The last thing is that tarp + bivies arent the best for folks who sleep cold … Everytime you get in and out youll lose heat … And there isnt much of an insulative gap

for folks who sleep cold a solid fabric double walled tent is the way to go …. Youll easily find a 10-15F difference between the outside and inside temps

not to mention wind will have a smaller effect

my favorite climbing partner runs cold so we got her a sleeping bag with 700+g of down, shes getting an xtherm, and shes got a double walled tent

now shes as cozzy as a hibernating bear …

The fact that you have no condensation tells me its a lack of insulation issue (pad or quilt)

;)

 

[Sr Al]

Drink a hot chocolate with made with full fat dehydrated milk or goat milk, and add butter.  I do this in the winter and woke feeling like I was in an oven in 15F weather.

[Mitchell Ebbott]

Lots of good tips here—I’ll definitely vouch for the CCF-on-top approach.

Something that stood out to me when I read your original post was the toe socks. Those are the least warm type of socks you can get—think of the difference between gloves and mittens. Your toes don’t get enough individual blood flow to keep themselves very warm, it’s best to huddle them together.

My feet tend to get cold at night, and the best change I’ve made is sleeping in full-length wool socks. I prefer walking in low-cut ankle socks, but I found that keeping my ankles warm at night goes a long way toward keeping my toes warm.

[jscott]

I agree with those advocating a warm pad. And probably a double wall tent.

[Author]

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