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When are they too big to be called cottage industries?


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Home Forums General Forums General Lightweight Backpacking Discussion When are they too big to be called cottage industries?

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  • #3421352
    George H
    BPL Member

    @unworhty

    When are they too big to be called cottage industries?
    <div>And will their size (and success) affect our shopping preferences?</div>
    <div></div>
    <div>I don’t know the gross sales of any of our favored little manufacturers. Never visited any of their facilities. I can only look their sites, social media exposure and frequency of discussion on various forums. Pairing this with how much I see them on the trail, I can then try to judge their size. Luke’s Ultralite is likely not that big, while MLD, despite their horrendous website, obviously is a major contender.</div>
    <div></div>
    <div>What got me speculating was a comment by the owner of EE on another thread here on BPL, referring to Climashield quilts: ‘..we make 50 of those a week..’. Not bad. Actually that seems like a lot. He’s the owner so he likely knows, but let’s assume he’s inflating the number a bit. How about 25 on average, year round. Now, Climashield quilts, in my assessment, are not nearly as popular as down. EE will sell more down quilts, for sure. How about 125 per week?</div>
    <div></div>
    <div>So with a wild estimate of 7800 sold units per year, is EE still a ‘cottage industry’? Is MLD? Or should we reserve this somewhat cute and cosy moniker to the guys that still work night jobs to get by; or the ones that take chances with experimental designs instead of pumping out the same thing in large quantities?</div>
    <div></div>
    <div>The majority of the BPL readership is, I might speculate, somewhat economically secure. At least compared to the reddit users! And we know more than average about gear. Do we take pride in spending a little extra to support an upstart or a smaller classic company? Do we accept gladly to possibly take a chance with an unproven product? Or is it, even for us, a cut-and-dry process of what works best?</div>
    <div></div>
    <div>Even with that number (7800), might EE still be a small player. Or maybe not, when comparing like products.</div>

    #3421368
    James holden
    BPL Member

    @bearbreeder-2

    once they start makig stuff in china and mexico (unless they are based there) and not in house ….

    ;)

    #3421370
    Roger Caffin
    BPL Member

    @rcaffin

    Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe

    It’s a good question. Some thoughts just off the top of my head:

    • If they have a VP of marketing, they are NOT a cottage industry.
    • If the founder/owner still runs the business and still chats on the BPL Forum, he IS a cottage industry.
    • If a customer can email the owner and get a reply, it is a cottage industry.

    I guess that means I see it as more a state of mind rather than sales volume?

    Cheers

     

    #3421376
    Nick Gatel
    BPL Member

    @ngatel

    Locale: Southern California

    Does it matter?

    IMO, if one needs a piece of new gear they should buy the highest quality item that meets their needs and their budget.

    If one doesn’t like any of the business practices of a company, one should take them off their shopping list.

    I can’t think of any other qualification, to include country of origin.

    #3421386
    Ken Thompson
    BPL Member

    @here

    Locale: Right there

    Once they mfg through out sourcing and start to sell in retail settings. SMD, GG, for example. EE still mfg. in house, abeit a big house.

    #3421389
    JCH
    BPL Member

    @pastyj-2-2

    I like Roger and Ken’s answers. If the founder still runs the show, answers emails and maybe even still makes gear (at least prototypes for new product), and everything is made in one shop, it’s cottage.

    Is there a size limit for whether a structure can be called a cottage? :)

    #3422053
    Eric Blumensaadt
    BPL Member

    @danepacker

    Locale: Mojave Desert

    I’ve felt that for several years Tarptent has grown beyond the “cottage industry” size. But it still is a family operation and Henry Shires is the owner/designer/customer service/ etc. How he does it all so well always amazes me.

     

    #3422075
    David Thomas
    BPL Member

    @davidinkenai

    Locale: North Woods. Far North.

    If they’re making the best, lightest, high-quality choice for that type of gear, I like to support what they are doing, regardless of their size.

    There was a time when MSR’s XG-K offered something new to trekkers.  And Cascade Design’s first thermarest really was innovative.  But do they go mainstream, get bought up by REI, and continuing making (admittedly good, high-quality gear), but slow down on the cutting-edge R&D, or do they continue to serve our niche market with new, innovative developments?

    #3422163
    Diane “Piper” Soini
    BPL Member

    @sbhikes

    Locale: Santa Barbara

    A cottage industry is small by definition. Has nothing to do with the quality of the gear.

    #3422184
    Ken Thompson
    BPL Member

    @here

    Locale: Right there

    True Piper. Plenty of examples of that out there.

    #3422197
    jimmy b
    BPL Member

    @jimmyb

    What got me speculating was a comment by the owner of EE on another thread here on BPL, referring to Climashield quilts: ‘..we make 50 of those a week..’. Not bad. Actually that seems like a lot. He’s the owner so he likely knows, but let’s assume he’s inflating the number a bit.

    I’m in the camp of size doesn’t matter right, at least that’s what I tell my wife.

    I am a little curious about the above though. Am I assuming because you believe EE is not being honest with us or just using this to make a point of some sort. I would have no reason to believe he is inflating the numbers….odd.

    I don’t see how pumping the numbers would mean a thing here. If its not a quality product its not getting repeat sales anyway, cottage or major player. Start ups are most dependent on word of mouth sales and positive product feedback.

    I do like the idea of these little guys growing their businesses to the point of making some real decent $$. Less apt to go out over a bad product mishap, more likely to be able to scale and price down items to stay competitive and who doesn’t love a success story. The thing that frustrates me most is how some companies, big or small, sell out on the folks they built their businesses on. But you know their free to do that too.

    #3422386
    George H
    BPL Member

    @unworhty

    I have no reason to doubt the owner’s statement nor his honesty, but for the sake of this discussion I didn’t want to aim too high.

    But, that said, a lot of people unknowingly exaggerate a bit: ‘Yup, in the summer it’s 100° every day around here’. That sort of thing. I certainly do it all the time. And sales numbers do vary. Remembering mostly the big weeks, especially if they happened back to back recently, is a normal behavior.

    #3422440
    Franco Darioli
    Spectator

    @franco

    Locale: Gauche, CU.

    If I had in the bank the difference between how much my salesman claimed they sold and the real figure, I would be a very rich man.

    #3422449
    JCH
    BPL Member

    @pastyj-2-2

    Perhaps we could identify one key characteristic of “cottage” as a lack of advertising?

    Most of what are generally acknowledged (at least by BPLers) as cottage manufacturers seem to have no formal/traditional advertising, relying rather on word-of-mouth, blog reviews, reputation and such.

    #3422451
    Roger Caffin
    BPL Member

    @rcaffin

    Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe

    cottage manufacturers seem to have no formal/traditional advertising

    Third posting in this thread: If they have a VP of marketing, they are NOT a cottage industry.

    Cheers

     

    #3422452
    JCH
    BPL Member

    @pastyj-2-2

    Sixth posting in this thread: I like Roger and Ken’s answers. :)

    #3423552
    Eric Blumensaadt
    BPL Member

    @danepacker

    Locale: Mojave Desert

    Well, to date I’ve not seen one ad for Tarptent, just a website. But it does have a fairly large output, so is it still a cottage industry?

    At least Backpacker Magazine has deigned to list some Tarptent models in their annual gear issue. Haven’t seen a GG or other cottage industry there, not that it means a d@mn thing except that maybe the rag is finally acknowledging TT’s larger place in the tent market.

    #3423567
    Andy Berner
    BPL Member

    @berner9

    Locale: Michigan

    Eric you are a walking talking tarptent ad.

    Does that count?

    #3423576
    Brad Rogers
    BPL Member

    @mocs123

    Locale: Southeast Tennessee

    To me it is a cottage industry if they sell direct (not availible at REI etc), produce in house products, and cater to a niche market.

    Once you start outsourcing production overseas you become a little less cottage, but if you meet the other criteria are still borderline. Once I can walk into REI and buy your product, you are mainstream.

    EE – even if they are making that many quilts are still cottage.

    #3423657
    Andy Berner
    BPL Member

    @berner9

    Locale: Michigan

    I’d say if you can can still get custom work done to your specifications, that’s makes it cottage

    #3425638
    Tim Marshall
    BPL Member

    @marshlaw303

    Locale: Minnesota

    I have myself wondered at what point we aren’t cottage. We might just be one of the biggest little guys out there, but then we would be the absolute smallest of the big guys if put in that group. I will say my synthetic numbers I posted, 50 per week, were about right when I posted them. Our synthetic team (4ppl) still has 2 very new staff so as they get better we are now doing ~60 synthetic units each week. About 65% are hoodlums, booties, and minions with the other 35% being Prodigies, Prospects and Protégés, mostly Prodigies.

    I don’t keep secrets, ask what you need to know, but I also don’t volunteer how big we are as I’m not sure how you guys would feel knowing we have ~85 employees, can build over 300 down quilts each week, and that we still can’t build enough product each week to keep up with demand. This year we moved from renting 5,000 ft2 to about 30,000ft2 and are now working toward building our own building between 40 and 65,000ft2

    I don’t know if we really are “cottage.”  I still run the daily business, I run a 2 person R&D department, you’re gonna love what we’ve got coming. I do have 2 officers, one who oversees HR, Acounting and Facilities, my Recources Officer (Andy has been with us since Oct. 2014) and the other manages Customer Service, Information Systems, marketing and communications, the Communications and Technologies officer (Steve has been my good friend for 10 years but just joined our team in June). I am currently filling the Opperations officer role over Production, Quality Assurance and R&D(I will accept resumes though;). Most of the listed departments have Department heads and a small staff with a few of them being run by only the officer or one or two staff.

    We are bigger than I ever dreamed or imagined, and doubling in size every year. I am involved in all our big decisions and strategies, but not the guy on the other end of the phone anymore.  We make all our products in house, and plan to for years to come, that’s why I need so much space. We are looking to get storage bags made for us as we use so damn many and it’s not our prime focus. We are seeking out local partners before we consider even taking this small piece of our production oversees.

    We may not be uber small anymore, but we still act like a tiny company. We are very proud of our customer service and will always strive to treat customers the way we want to be treated by the companies we buy from. We treat our staff like real people, paying ~20% more than similar jobs in our area. We have clean comfortable working conditions, no sweat shop here. I’m not trying to claim we have it all figured out or perfect but I feel that no matter our size we still treat our customers and our staff like real people that actually mater to us.

    I hope this doesn’t come off as arrogant, that’s why I keep this stuff to myself. I just wanted to answer your questions and show that we are always willing to be transparent

    and no we don’t have a V.P. of Marketing, we have a Head of Marketing and a 10hr Marketing Intern but they mostly focus on site photography and educational content  Abunch of videos actually went up yesterday

    -Tim

    #3425643
    BlackHatGuy
    Spectator

    @sleeping

    Locale: The Cascades

    Super happy you’re doing so well Tim. You’ve always been a great guy to work with, the cuben quilts you made for me early on were fabulous, and I’m still using the quilt system (that snaps together) you made for me a couple of years ago – had it out weekend before last and on a 12-day Montana/Idaho trip last month.

    Such success couldn’t happen to a nicer guy.

    #3425644
    Roger Caffin
    BPL Member

    @rcaffin

    Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe

    Hi Tim

    I find it really interesting that you can be making such a huge volume of product per week – IN AMERICA. I dare say your stuff may be a little more expensive than a made-in-China Costco special, but that is more a reflection on the Costco products and ethics.

    Frankly, I don’t care whether you are ‘cottage’, ‘beachfront’ or ‘mansion’. Just keep doing the RIGHT things.

    Cheers

     

    #3425766
    Tony Wong
    BPL Member

    @valshar

    Locale: San Francisco Bay Area

    Tim,

    Just wanted to say thank you for adding to the conversation and for sharing with us about your business and some of the behind the scenes details.

    I hope that your company continues to grow and that you are able to keep the level of quality and service that you have works so hard on to gain the reputation that you have.

    One thing that I enjoy about “cottage” manufactures is the ability to have a more personalized relationship and connection to the people who are making my specialized gear.

    Perhaps that is one other overlooked part of what makes a cottage manufacture….it is not the size of the company, it is the fact that they offer a niche product and provide a more personal relationship to their consumers vs. a bigger/mainstream company.

    When I hear people talk or complain about the big companies, what I hear is that those bigger companies are impersonal and have less of a connection with their clients, simply by the nature of the large volumes that they produce and the large staff that they have where clients become simply one of many in a sea of customers.

    Anyway, just some thoughts and wishing all the “cottage” manufactures the best of luck as they have chosen to create products for what is, by definition, a smaller client base, which we are the beneficiaries of and enable us to go lighter, further, fast in our outdoor adventures.

    Tony

    #3426179
    Eric Blumensaadt
    BPL Member

    @danepacker

    Locale: Mojave Desert

    Is Granite Gear still considered a cottage industry?

    @ Andy, What in the world makes you think I’m a Tarptent fanboy? ;o)

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