What shoulder width for winter sleeping bag?

[Joe Meek]

My shoulder girth (measured on skin) is 48″.  Shoulder width 20″ (as best I could determine measuring by myself).  Chest 44″.  Girth around elbows (standing, arms at sides) 52″.  Weight 185 lbs.

I’m looking at WM Antelope, Versalite, and Lynx.  Shoulder widths all three bags is either 62″ (regular length) or 63″ (long).

What do you think?  Sleeping in just a med weight base layer, will 62 or 63″ leave me enough room without compressing the down with my shoulders?

Will it leave enough room for a down jacket (EMS Feather Pack, or Patagonia Down Sweater, or Mountain Equipment K7) and down pants (Goosefeet Gear)?

My current USGI surplus winter bag is 66″ girth.  It fit just fine when I was 49-50″ chest (lifted weights a lot).  Haven’t lifted since a TIA a few years ago.  So I’ve shrunk to a size large!  I can spike volleyballs in the USGI 66″ width now!  Seriously, I’m swimming it it.  It’s huge on me.

It makes me think WM’s Kodiak and other bags with >65″ shoulder width would be too big (too much space to heat in winter).

I think 64″ width might be good. Feathered Friends makes a 64″ wide bag.  But they’re not made in USA and from the few I’ve seen (not the orig super custom sized made in USA bags) they’re close but not equal to the build quality of WM.  But their 64″ might be a good fit.

What say ye?

Thanks, everyone

[Roger Caffin]

If you use a quilt instead, it will be a bit lighter than the equivalent bag, and width does not matter. Far greater flexibility.

After all, with a bag half of it is squashed flat and gives no insulation. Wasted weight.
What do you use at home: a quilt?

Cheers

[Bonzo]

But they’re not made in USA and from the few I’ve seen (not the orig super custom sized made in USA bags) they’re close but not equal to the build quality of WM.

Well, the Ibis that I mentioned in your other thread is made in Seattle…and that’s not a custom bag by any stretch.

I’ve used WM bags as well; F/F (edited to remove auto-link) is every bit their equal.  WM does offer some burlier construction options, but those are overkill for all but the most serious users.  I would be – and often have been – very happy with either manufacturer.

Also, I like a bit more room in the body of the bag, myself; easier to shift around or add layers, if needed.

[John Vance]

I measure similarly but 18lbs lighter and 5’9″ and have a WM Kodiak and love it for winter use.   It replaced my 25 year old GTX FF Peregrine which was about perfectly sized but the Kodiak is 24oz less and nearly half the volume in my pack or pulk.  I can wear a fully baffled down parka and pants in it with no compression and have been comfortable down to the coldest I’ve yet used it at  -21f atop an xtherm and 3/8″ ccf pad.
I wanted enough room to change clothes inside the bag and store items I wanted to keep warm and dry. In med weight base layers only – it has been warm to about 5f and then it’s a bit chilly with all the extra space.   I find it is very easy to just place my insulation layers inside the bag along the sides of me and it’s fine and warm to zero an a bit below.   I love the extra room for those long winter nights and having my clothing items warm and in the bag with me.  A narrower bag makes that a bit more difficult for me.

[Joe Meek]

Hi John Vance;

My old winter bag is 66″ shoulder width.  It’s really big on me after my weight loss.  I’m leery of spending $$$ on the Kodiak for fear it’ll be only a 10 degree bag due to interior volume.

I’d really have to order one to try on and find out for myself.

Do you know your shoulder girth, or girth at elbows with arms at sides?  What size shirt fits you best?

(Sheesh, hard to believe I’m asking another man on the internet, and a complete stranger, what his shirt size is!!)

[Joe Meek]

Roger;

Quilts look like a pain to get out of if you have to answer a nature call in the wee hours.  Would you please explain to me how you get in/out with those quilt straps under your pad?

If anything, it seems like a regular ole’ quilt, maybe 5’x7′ or so, would serve the same purpose.  In theory, no drafts would enter because the quilt sides and bottom are laying on the ground beside your pad.

I think Philip Werner of Section Hiker said he went back to bags for winter, after using quilts for winter for a bit.  Said the bags were warmer.  Something to consider for us 65+ dudes.

[NoCO-Jim]

Joe, I’m 6′-0″, shoulder girth 48″, chest 41″, 175 lbs and the WM Antelope-Long fits me just fine.  Never had the need for any additional puffy, so I can’t help you there.  I don’t know what your height is but I’m glad I went with the long for the extra storage room at the foot, and the hood is not stretched.

[Joe Meek]

NoCO-Jim;

Same shoulder girth as me and practically the same weight.  Cupla days ago Hermit’s Hut had a long Antelope, overstuffed.  The long has shoulder width of 63″.  I was mighty tempted but held back because HH said no returns on bags and because my home made “sheet tube” indicates 63″ might not offer much room.

Instead of buying a 62″ bag and having to return it, I sewed an old bedsheet into a 62″ girth tube that’s about 4′ long.  It’s my “test bag”.  In my normal “casket” sleep position my elbows were almost touching both sides of the tube.  I figure because that one more inch in the Antelope wouldn’t give me that much more room (to wear puffy, insulated pants, etc).

I need to buy about $3,000 of bags and try them on for size.  Have to work myself up to pulling that trigger.

 

[Roger Caffin]

Quilts look like a pain to get out of if you have to answer a nature call in the wee hours. Would you please explain to me how you get in/out with those quilt straps under your pad?
Oh, very simple! I don’t use any straps under the pad.

I made my quilt (myself) to be perhaps a bit wider than some of the UL narrow versions. The edges of the pad sit on the air mat or even on the ground, although the latter is colder. I tuck the edges in next to me.

So how do I get out? I sit up, push the quilt out of the way, just the way I would do at home.
Mind you, I don’t normally have to go to the loo in the middle of the night. My bladder is still adequate. Here’s hoping for the future.

Cheers

[Joe Meek]

HA!  Thanks, Roger.

That’s the quilt setup I always (1) imagined would work just fine, maybe with a few tweaks here ‘n there, and (2) wondered why no one manufactured such a quilt, instead of quilts that look like open back sleeping bags with B&D straps all over them!

What fill did you use?  Fill weight?  Comfortable temperature for you?  And lastly, do any mfgrs make such a quilt?

 

[Bruce Tolley]

@ Joe. You have not said what the girth of your layers including the down layers is. That would be the right number. In my experience, the girth specs from vendors are accurate with in +/- 5%.  But you are right, if you get a bag that is too wide, it will be cold. You will end up having to use it like a quilt. :-))

 

[Roger Caffin]

I should add one critical (imho) detail to the design of a quilt to address the following problem. You will find that unless the quilt is very large, it may ‘float’ off your feet. Quilts at home don’t (normally) do this because they are very wide.

I made our quilts a bit like sleeping bags, in that the foot end is closed. I get my feet into this foot end and the quilt can not escape. This design has several advantages, not just the obvious one.

I used to see my wife trying to get into her sleeping bag in the tent, only to complain later on that she was cold. Her problem was that she was usually sitting on the underside of the bag as she got in, so the underside never came up even to her shoulders. Extreme contortions were sometimes needed to get that underside free and above her shoulders. I switched her (misgivings at first on her part) to a quilt, and suddenly there was no problem at all: there was no ‘underside’ any more. She sat down on her mat, put her feet into the bottom end of the quilt, lay down on the mat and pulled (flicked?) her quilt over her head. Dead easy!

Our (MYOG) summer quilts are about 800 g, with a generous hood. Very UL, but normally quite warm enough. You can read about them at https://backpackinglight.com/MYOG_down_quilt_bag/
I made them in 2009.

However, one summer night we were camped halfway down an alpine valley, and the cold air flowed down over us. It actually got down to -7 C in the valley that night. What to do? Well, I usually couple our airmats together with silnylon loops so no-one falls into the gap: they become a double-width mat. I got my wife to snuggle up against me, with her feet in her quilt foot box, and pulled her quilt over the two of us. The quilt was stable as her feet held it in place. Then I pulled my quilt over her quilt, with my feet in the end of mine. My quilt was also stable. Now we had a double layer of down over us – and we slept quite well and warm thank you. This would have been impossible without those foot-boxes at the end.

So a simple dead flat open quilt is not ideal, imho.

Materials:
Pertex Quantum (I don’t know about current fabrics)
“Superdown’ from local gear mfr – best quality but NOT coated
Thread: finer than most mass-mfrs use as I could sew slowly, while they worry about breakages at speed

Commercial availability – sorry, dunno. We have the gear we need, and it does not wear out. Ask around here.

Cheers

[John Vance]

Sorry about the delay.  I wear a large shirt and jacket.  43″ chest, 48″ shoulder girth, and 52″ girth with arms at my side at the elbow.

[Joe Meek]

John VanceBPL MEMBER
Sorry about the delay.  I wear a large shirt and jacket.  43″ chest, 48″ shoulder girth, and 52″ girth with arms at my side at the elbow.

Wow, thanks John!  I’m 48″ shoulder girth.  44″ chest.  And 52″ elbow girth.  Only an inch difference.

Don’t like sleeping with puffy or insulated pants, though.  And I’m too old and lazy to lift weights to gain body mass.

Have to just buy, try, and return if doesn’t fit.

FF has 64″ shoulder girth bags in 30, 20, 0, -10, and -20 degrees.  Hips and foot are 1″ more than comparable WM bags.

Something prestigious about having a WM bag, though.  FF doesn’t seem to have same pedigree.  Not very many FF reviews online, but what’s there rate FF bags highly.

 

[John Vance]

I’ve owned a few FF bags and a dozen or more WM bags – currently the Kodiak and a semi custom Astralite.  Both bag makers are top notch.  FF cold weather bags are have robust shells and can take a fair amount of abuse and they utilize tuck sticking construction, something few bag makers use.
WM has the finest quality down I have ever used with the exception of a bag I had in the 70’s that was filled with Eider duck down.  Fill power numbers notwithstanding, I’d put WM down up against any other bag maker.  Some might be as good but they would likely be using the same supplier.   While I admire the construction techniques of FF, WM bags are impeccably constructed and I’ve never had an issue with any of their bags due to materials or construction with the exception of the early Astralite quilt I first purchased that used a cutting edge shell material that under certain circumstances wasn’t breathable enough to allow insensible perspiration to pass, causing a build up of moisture in the down.   They made a change and we’re great to work with.  I also have a long history with WM having spent many hours shooting the breeze with them back in the 70’s at the San Jose store when they first started.  I worked at a ski shop nearby.

As I mentioned earlier, the FF dimensions where about perfect (Peregrine) but as I’ve gotten older I have come to like a bit more room in a cold weather bag and WM has some of the lightest and most compressible options.   I deliberated between the Kodiak and the Antelope and ended up purchasing both so I could try them out for sizing.   If they had something between that would have been my Goldilocks bag but I decided to error on the side of extra space.

[Monte Masterson]

There’s Western Mountaineering and then there’s everything else.

At 5′ 10″ 185 lbs, a 6′ long 64″ shoulder width bag would provide PLENTY of space, even with a midweight puffy and insulated pants. If you’re buying new Hermit’s Hut has 6′ Alpinlites with 3 oz free overfill for $630. Can’t match that deal anywhere else. Then you’d have a 64″ shoulder bag with 22 oz 850 down fill, which would give you a true comfort rating of around 10 degrees F. https://hermitshut.com/collections/camping/products/western-mountaineering-alpinlite-sleeping-bag

But for your size Joe the Versalite might be even better. As you know it’s 2 ” smaller than the Alpinlite at hip and shoulder, but 62″ is still pretty roomy and it will provide for more efficient warming because of less empty space. They are rated at 10 degrees comfort with 20 oz down fill, but you can send them to WM for 3 oz overfill for $48 plus shipping. A Versalite with 23 oz fill would put you at near 0 degrees F comfort rating. That’s probably the way to go. Hermit’s Hut is out of free overfill Vesalites in 6′ length right now. BPL staff writer Ben Kilbourne did a very good review of the Versalite on Sectionhiker earlier this year. He says it came in almost 2 oz over spec, which was probably extra down weight. https://sectionhiker.com/western-mountaineering-versalite-10-sleeping-bag-review/

I would absolutely not buy a 6′ 6″ bag, no way. It’s heavier, way less efficient and you’re just asking to rub the bag up against a shelter wall with condensation.

[Joe Meek]

John Vance;

Many thanks for all your posts.  This is a big hill to climb for me.

I spoke by phone with Gary S. (owner) at WM last week.  Told him my girth numbers (shoulder, chest, arms at sides).  Without hesitation he said 6′ Alpinlite.  This length has 64″ shoulder.

I asked about Versalite, Lynx, Antelope (all 62″ shoulder).  He said they’d be smaller and that I’d fit without down compression at shoulder if I didn’t move around a lot (e.g. slept coffin style all/most of the night).  My takeaway was his opinion was I need 64″ for comfort (ability to not sleep “coffin” style all night), and prevent down compression in shoulders.

I never asked about going bigger, e.g. Kodiak, Sequoia.  I thought they were too big until you posted about your Kodiak.

While FF has 64″ bags from -30 to 30F (optimum size per Gary S. at WM) I’m gonna try a few WM bags first.

Tonight I ordered a 6′ Alpinlite.   It’s 64″, 55″, 39″.  Not from HH because HH said they don’t accept bag returns.  The place I ordered from accepts returns.  If this bag fits and HH still has overfill 6′ Alpinlites I’ll get one as shoulder season bag.

Also ordered 6’6″ Antelope (they were out of 6′ bags).  The 6’6″ is 63, 54, 39.  I’ll see how it stacks up against the 64, 55, 39 Alpinlite.  Also what it’s like to be 5’10” in a 6’6″ bag.

If the 63″ Antelope is too snug in shoulders then 62″ Lynx would be even tighter.  Bummer.  But it’s a start.

If I can find a Kodiak that I can try and return if necessary, I’ll order.  Then maybe a FF in 64″; either -10 or 0 degree mode.

 

[Joe Meek]

Monte;

Always great to read your posts.  Very informative as usual.

Tonight I ordered a 6′ WM Alpinlite.  Not from HH because Dan said California law prohibits return of bedding.  The place I ordered from will accept bag returns.

Alpinlite is 64″, 53″, 39″.  When I called WM last week and gave them my girth measurements, Gary S (forgot the whole last name) immediately said Alpinlite would be perfect.  I’ll soon find out.

I asked about Versalite and other 62″ shoulder girth bags.  He said they’d work if I slept coffin style with elbows close to body, or slept with arms at sides.  I admit I’m a coffin sleeper, but elbows more away than close in to body.

I could’ve ordered a 6′ Versalite.  62, 53, 39 girths with 20 oz fill.  The 6′ Antelope has same girths with 26 oz fill.  Two bags, same exact sizes.  But one has 6 oz more fill.

They were out of 6′ Antelopes (!) so I ordered 6’6″ Antelope.  63, 54, 39.  I’ll see how it stacks up to the 64, 55, 39 Alpinlite.

Also see how a 6’6″ bag fits 5’10” me.  And what it’s like to put my boot liners in the bottom.

Do you ever wish you could put boot liners (or your leather boots), or clothes in bag bottom when it’s in teens or single digits?  Gary at WM said I could put liners, water bottle, etc between my legs.  I can’t imagine how I’d sleep like that.

Bags should be here Fri or Sat.  Will report on how they fit.

Would like to find a 6′ Kodiak but no luck yet.  Has to be returnable.

No mountain shops in my little state.  Two REI’s here but neither sell WM.

[Joe Meek]

Monte;

At 160 lbs Ben Kilbourne is 25 lbs less than my 185 lbs.  He said he’s thin enough to probably use a 59″ Ultralite but the 62″ Versalite isn’t so big on him that it’s thermally inefficient.  He’s used a 64″ Megalite and Alpinlite and liked their comfort.  But it took awhile to warm them up.

So it seems the 62″ bags might not be best for me.  If I ever lift weights again (a constant unfulfilled fantasy for this 67 yo man) and increase chest/shoulder size, those bags will be expensive quilts for the couch.

After reading Kilbourne (thanks, BTW for the link) I wonder if Kodiak or Sequoia’s larger hip girth might be best (I sleep all over the place sometimes and extra hip room might be nice/needed at the expense of thermal efficiency.  I have a toasty Mountain Equipment K7 (about 3 or 4 years old) and Integral Designs Primaloft pants (warm but nowhere near “down warm” that’d work inside the Sequoia.  Might be too much for the Kodiak.

I gotta get a Kodiak but haven’t found one tonight online (besides HH).

Ben Kilbourne on the Versalite::

I am 5’ 11”, 160 lbs, and the Versalite 10 bag fits me perfectly. The 62” shoulder girth is a great balance of thermal efficiency and comfort. The mid-section of the bag is 53” which allows some space to bend my knees, and the 39” footbox is simply perfect. I don’t know why the footbox is so good, but it’s the best I’ve encountered on any bag or quilt.

I’m probably thin enough to get away with the 59” shoulder girth offered in other Western Mountaineering bags like the Ultralite 20, but the weight savings and thermal efficiency probably wouldn’t override the comfort of the Versalite’s 62” width for me. I’ve also used a couple of Western Mountaineering 64” girth bags including the Alpinlite 20 and the Megalite and they’re very comfortable but they take a while to warm up.

[Roger Caffin]

Do you ever wish you could put boot liners (or your leather boots), or clothes in bag bottom when it’s in teens or single digits?
Don’t do this. Just DON’T.
The reason is that any moisture in the liners or in the boots will evaporate off – and condense in the down. Do you want wet down?
Dry objects: water bottle, gas canisters, etc are fine: they start out dry.

Cheers

[Joe Meek]

My 6′ not-overfilled Alpinlite arrived today.  Here’s my test result.

I laid the bag on an inflated 30″ wide Klymit summer weight pad.  Then waited for the bag to loft up.   I put on medium weight merino top (1/2 zip) and bottoms, medium weight merino Darn Tough hiker socks, and a lightweight fleece beanie.  Then I climbed in, zipped up to neck, and assumed my normal “coffin” position.

With hands on chest, fingers interlocked, elbows somewhat close to sides of my ribcage (as I normally do), I found my elbows were barely touching the insides of the bag.  The outer shell that was over my arms was more taut than loose.  Not tight, but not loose either.  “Flat with no wrinkles” is a good way to put it.

Stayed that way a few minutes.  Moved elbows slightly wider (fingers still interlocked on my chest) and found elbows made definite contact with bag sides.  Down was just barely compressed (far as I could tell/feel).  Outer shell over hands/arms was visibly taut; moreso than with elbows closer to ribcage.

Then put arms at sides and found no compression anywhere.  Interlocked fingers with hands at crotch area (no comments!) and found no down compression by arm sides.

But I don’t sleep with arms at sides or hands over crotch.  I start sleeping coffin then eventually turn on one side, then the other side, then back to coffin.

I next exited the bag and measured around my arms, elbows, and hands while in coffin position on the Klymit.  With tape not loose and not tight against my body, I measured 64″ exactly.  The same shoulder circumference as WM Alpinlite specs.

Bummer.  64″ shoulder circumference is too small for my primary sleep position.  If I slept arms at sides or hands over crotch, this bag would be good and very efficient in terms of interior space.  But I don’t sleep that way.

Want to order/try Kodiak (6’L @ 66″ shoulder) but none to be had except HH, and Dan said he doesn’t take returns.  Badger (6’L @ 65″ shoulder) is second choice to order/try.  This bag is 1″ wider in shoulder than Alpinlite.

I can’t see how 1″ greater circumference will really make a difference.  But you can’t tell unless you try it on.

I should’ve started this in August…..

[Roger Caffin]

I can’t see how 1″ greater circumference will really make a difference.
It probably won’t.
But if you open the bag out and use it as a quilt, you will be warmer and a lot more comfortable.

Cheers

[Joe Meek]

PS.  Besides the 6′ Alpenlite, my 6’6″ Antelope (non-overfill) also arrived today.  It’s shoulder circumference is 1″ smaller than the Alpinlite (63″ Antelope v 64″ Alpinlite).

I’ll try it on anyway to see if that 1″ difference is noticeable, and how much noticeable.  Also how the 6’6″ length feels on my 5’10” frame.

Ya know, in the 1700 an 1800’s, a white explorer or trapper would have Caribou clothes and bedding, a sled to carry them on, and 6 or more dogs to pull it all.  He’d shoot moose, caribou, and bear for meat, tallow grease, and the furs.  He’d have steel traps, steel bucksaw, an Indian tomahawk, and a muzzle loader or early cartridge rifle (1800s).  He never shopped in Walmart and could go coast to coast catching and shooting his meat, clothes, bedding, and shelter.

Sigh….and he never had eyeglasses or contacts.  Twice yearly dental cleanings.  911 for emergencies.  Central heating/cooling.  Indoor plumbing.  Or any modern conveniences that’re supposed to make our lives “better” than the trapper, voyageur, or explorer of days gone by.

[Joe Meek]

Hi Roger.

I’ll have to look more closely into winter quilts (down only, though).  Just a regular, rectangular quilt.  No straps, etc.  Us old times get up often at night to make perimeter checks, an’ we can’t have tiny cords thwarting our security patrols.

;-)

 

[Roger Caffin]

Of course down. ALL our quilts are down.
But never flat quilts: they all have foot-boxes and hoods.

‘Us old-timers’ – do you know how old I am?

Cheers

[Author]

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