what i HATE about trip reports and other data

[Nick Gatel]

For those who have been around for a while, you know that I despise trail guides, comprehensive articles and detailed trip reports to remote, rarely visited places that contain maps and especially GPS waypoints.

This is what happens when this kind of information is published.

So, I shall continue to be a jerk when I see this kind of detail provided for public consumption. I am especially frustrated when I see this kind of stuff and the author is paid for its publication.

[John Vance]

Amen brother. No GPS for me either. If you can’t get there without electronic bread crumbs you shouldn’t go. All too often if coordinates are posted the location is treated like a geocache – meaning they leave something, usually undesirable in the way of trash or damage, and take something they shouldn’t.

[Jerry Adams]

“And if you own a GPS unit, throw it away.”

That produced a healthful belly laugh.  How Nick!  Thanks

Yeah, sensitive places shouldn’t have detailed directions.  Too bad people will abuse it.  Or those two guys that pushed over the stacked rocks.  Or the guy that carved his initials in the railing at Larch Mountain with his kid and verbally abused a bystander that complained (he had to pay a nice fine, but I think that railing has now been removed because people keep vandalizing it).

What about non sensitive places?  Some people don’t like detailed directions and description because then it ruins the hike for them.  They’d rather leave the details to be discovered.

I think I’m going to get a Samsung Galaxy 5 to replace my GPS.  Join the 21st century.  Maybe a selfie stick too : )

 

 

[John Vance]

I am all about the selfie stick, but I use my trekking pole and a mini tripod and Velcro strap to document trips.  In today’s media driven world if you don’t have a picture you weren’t there.

[monkey]

Don’t see the logic, sorry. Having the “skill to locate Carey’s Castle on their own” doesn’t equate with ethical and environmental consideration and awareness. Just as the lack of said skill does not equate with the opposite?

 

 

[Jerry Adams]

If there are detailed directions on the web, more people will go there.  Especially people that are less LNT.  This “case of one” isn’t statistically significant, but it makes sense.

[monkey]

I see. The point about numbers is kind of obvious, the more people come, the greater the impact, the higher the chance that some of those people may lack LNT awareness.

That’s why I thought that the post was trying to make a different point, that there is some sort of correlation between people who have the desire and skill to experience wilderness and LNT, as opposed to people who have the desire but not the skill.

 

[Ralph Burgess]

Don’t see the logic, sorry. Having the “skill to locate Carey’s Castle on their own” doesn’t equate with ethical and environmental consideration and awareness. Just as the lack of said skill does not equate with the opposite?

People who have expended time and effort to acquire the experience and skill to navigate through the wilderness will tend to be people who value it, and are just more aware of the consequences if LNT practice is not followed.

On a related note – I hate over-cairning of cross-country routes as much as GPS tracks.  Of course, there’s a place for cairns in appropriate situations – to mark a safe line where others are dangerous, or where there are conservation issues.   And in some cases, a heavily cairned route is essentially a proxy for a major trail,  where a trail passes over an area of slickrock for example.

But I hate cairning in cross country areas where there is no good reason for a unique line – the Sierra High Route, for example.  I’m with Steve Roper, I will knock down any that I see.   They serve no purpose at all – if you can’t navigate the easy terrain of the SHR, stick to a trail – and they spoil the experience for those who want to be deep in the wilderness and enjoy the challenge of finding their own way.

I’ve even seen ridiculous over-cairning every hundred feet down canyon beds where your only possible options are to continue, turn around, or climb the sheer walls.

Often, I think that the builders of inappropriate cairns are not motivated by a desire to enhance the experience of others, but to show the world that this is a place that their penis was clever enough to visit.

[Roger B]

Maybe these days “Leave no Trace” should also include “Leave no GPX trail”  I agree with the sentiments expressed by Nick, I have seen so many places loved to death by hikers who do not understand (or care about) LNT principles all they want is the trophy to take home, whether it be a piece of something or a photo of them (or their initials engraved on a stone). If people are to publish detailed information, for profit, on fragile and remote environments then maybe their first publication should be on how LNT principles have influenced and impacted on their experiences.

 

[Kenneth Keating]

It’s a dilemma. Most want to post information to let others know what’s out there and hopefully the others will visit, enjoy and respect the location.  But then you don’t want too many to go there as it takes away the uniqueness of the location.

Nick, I am intrigued by your response as you do post trip reports.  They’re great posts, and when I read them I think, “Wow, I’ve never heard of this place, it looks great, I need to go there!”  But I also understand your frustration when people don’t respect the environment.

K

[Bruce Tolley]

I think another big drawback to the use of GPS breadcrumbs from published trip reports is that folks often attempt to substitute trip data loaded into their GPS technology for experience and proper trip planning.

A few years ago I had a group trip to Emigrant Wilderness fall apart at the last minute, so I decided to go to Yosemite for an overnight backpack. Long story short, I got a permit to enter from Tamarack Flat with the aim to ascend via trail the back of El Cap the next day. I made camp about a mile past the last water.  After dinner, I walked back to Cascade Creek for a fill up for breakfast. On my way back to camp I ran into these two guys with their headlights on coming up from the valley floor in the dark with a North Rim hike from Backpacker Magazine loaded into their big GPS. I stopped to chat and they asked me where they could find water and where could they camp. Since they had no map, I got my paper topo map out and showed them where they could get access to water and the places to camp that were far far away from my location.:-))

[IVO K]

Good man, Nick!

 

However, I am not naive enough to believe there’s stopping this practice.

While some of us know better and act responsibly on this matter, many others, including the media industry (print and online magazines, etc.) have no concerns, and will keep doing what they are doing. Those are outside my personal sphere of influence. The only thing I can do about them is refuse to support them in all of their activities, and engage in active non-propagation of said activities.

 

Makes me sad…

[Jerry Adams]

There are probably some people. that didn’t think about this, that were posting detailed directions, that now won’t.

[Anonymous]

Reminds me of that beautifully acted Keanu Reaves movie where the surf-bro’s fight over the wave. “Get off my wave!”

I respect your personal decisions to keep things as a bit of a mystery but the nerd in me cringes at all the great pieces of knowledge human kind has lost over the years because of information barriers or hoarding.

If we don’t want the digital wheelchair we don’t have to download it.

Of course, I side with preservation, but I’d also like to note that over-clinging to preservation makes me cringe equally. Specifically at Garden of the Gods in Co, the cement reinforcing of the balanced rock was kinda lame IMO. Parks should change over time and offer new experiences each time we go.

Lastly, overcrowding. There are some amazing parks on my list that I still haven’t gone too because of overcrowding. On the one hand it sucks. On the other hand I’m glad to see we’re living in a time where people are starting to spend more on eco-tourism than their television. As the community is expanding, and the big parks are overcrowding, I’m excited to see new frontiers opening up and becoming more accessible. Outside of the military I might be the 1st of my namesake to visit the southern Andes. The family is quite terrified.

 

 

 

 

[Paul Magnanti]

It is a balance..making a place known enough so the place is cherished enough to protect and enjoy by others, but not so detailed that the wildness of the place you love is gone.

I wrote about this in more detail if anyone is curious...

 

It is a balance I struggle with myself.

Here’s a newer version of the trip reports I do. It is a moderately well known canyon online, but not among most. , I think I kept the canyon somewhat obscure while still celebrating the wilderness area….I think. :)

 

Esp for for off-trail and/or semi-technical, I think it is good to be a little obscure.

Still a learning process for me for the proper way to strike the balance.

 

 

 

[Ralph Burgess]

the nerd in me cringes at all the great pieces of knowledge human kind has lost over the years because of information barriers or hoarding

Excuse the sidetrack, but – such as what?   I honestly can’t think of any significant example of this, except for short periods within totalitarian societies that have simply failed.    It seems to me that with Polio and Smallpox almost eradicated, and a telescope in orbit that can see back 95% of the way to the beginning of the universe, we’re doing pretty well.   And I hope to be able to upload my consciousness to the Cloud in the year 2050, so that I become immortal just as full senility sets in, and I can keep those kids of my lawn forever.

We do have a problem with using the information and knowledge that we have sensibly.   Of which, I’d say, this is a prime example.

 

[Nick Gatel]

There are probably some people. that didn’t think about this, that were posting detailed directions, that now won’t.

Jerry, that’s the point, what I call “unintended consequences.” My purpose in the post is that hopefully people will think about what might happen if they post too much information. One of my favorite BPL people posted a while back that one of his trip reports created a huge influx of people and now he no longer does detailed reports in sparsely used areas. That is my goal, whether or not anyone agrees or disagrees.

Recently there has been some controversy over the Wind River High Routes posted by Alan Dixon and then Andrew Skurka. From what I have read, Dixon posted GPS tracks and the information is free. If I am wrong about the GPS portion I apologize, if it is true then I think Alan is wrong for doing this. My opinion. Regarding Skurka, who charges for his information, my understanding is the detail is much less. So is Andrew helping or hurting the area – will it drive significant numbers of people to the area? Will it cause damage to the area? I don’t know. So I can’t say if it is bad or good. Time will tell. We have to understand that these contain fragile alpine ecosystems that cannot handle much foot traffic.

Nick, I am intrigued by your response as you do post trip reports.

Yes, I do. Nowadays they are on my website, which is really meant to let my kids know what I am up to. I don’t do trip reports for most of my hikes, just too much work and really, who cares?

You will see that I often don’t even disclose where I hiked, or I often camouflage information so it will be difficult to find the location. Many people criticize me for this, calling all kinds of names, such as self righteous and worse. The whole point is to protect these places from over use. They aren’t that difficult to locate if someone wants to take the time and effort to do it. Plus I like it that when I go back, I am alone, just as when I found it.

I have taken a handful of BPL members on trips to my “secret places” with the agreement they won’t post detailed information or recognizable landmarks. So here are some thoughts on the three trip reports I have posted with detailed information.

San Jacinto Loop

Parts of this hike are already overcrowded. I was not concerned with people trying to do the hike. The elevation gains are too severe on a foot per mile basis, there is too little water available, and typically temps are going to range from 20F to 105F over a 3 day period. As far as I know, no one has replicated the trip and the only other person that has done it is Craig Wisner who joined me a few years ago — I’m glad I posted that first trip report, it was the catalyst for a great friendship between Craig and me. Today it doesn’t matter as large portions of the route are now closed due to the Mountain Fire a few years ago.

My First Lake Mead Walkabout Trip

I have been back many, many times. No one is hiking that route. The lack of water keeps people away as I knew it would.

Butler Canyon Loop

This is the one I had some reservations about. And of course, there were no GPS tracks to share. The route is difficult, and I get somewhat lost every time I do it. I have never done the same exact route twice… it is mostly cross country. One bad thing that has happened, several people have tried it and got lost. I have received several PM’s about failed trips. So maybe it would have been better to exclude the maps. I could go back and delete them, but I’ll leave them as is.

Some thoughts on GPS units

I am not entirely against them. I have one, although I don’t know where I put it, seems I misplaced it a few years ago. I do use the Garmin software that is on my computer for some trip planning… sometimes the maps show ancient trails that are no longer on the USGS maps.

If one were to do the Brooks Range solo, it would probably be a good idea to take a GPS along with detailed maps. Winter in a snow storm is probably a good time to have a GPS along with maps.

What I object to is publishing GPS tracks.

It is interesting that many people have asked me for GPS tracks for that Butler Canyon loop, although I published a detailed map and even a Google Earth rendition. It seems to me that is someone still needs GPS way points to do it, perhaps they need to work on their navigation skills first. BTW, is it GPS tracks or way points?

Some Final Thoughts on Carey’s Castle

Some Government moron actually put the location on the most recent USGS map. I think they should have asked the people running the Park if it was okay. The existence of Carey’s Castle has been known for decades, and over the decades the Park Service would not disclose its location. I think this is the correct course of action, just as the Park Service will not disclose the locations of several remote petroglyph sites.

Years ago there were arrowheads and pottery chards all over the area. Those have mostly been swept clean by treasure hunters. Many of the personal belongings of Carey’s that were in his “castle” have disappeared over the years. These are the unintended consequences. There are other locations throughout the area where you can find things Carey left behind. These need to remain unknown.

But I hate cairning in cross country areas where there is no good reason for a unique line – the Sierra High Route, for example.  I’m with Steve Roper, I will knock down any that I see.   They serve no purpose at all – if you can’t navigate the easy terrain of the SHR, stick to a trail – and they spoil the experience for those who want to be deep in the wilderness and enjoy the challenge of finding their own way.

Whenever I am in the area of Carey’s Castle and many other places, I knock down almost all the cairns. However, if I see very recent cairns where someone might be relying on them to return back, I leave them. I’ll knock them down on my next trip.

 

[Ralph Burgess]

I think Skurka has a reasonable balance – his maps are  series of waypoints, rather than a complete track.    I might favor the waypoints a little sparser if anything – but that fine tuning.   Just omitting a complete detailed track is a significant step in the right direction, because it retains the requirement for basic navigation stills, and makes it much less likely that a use trail will become established.

[Nick Gatel]

Ralph, at this point in time I mostly agree with your perception of Andrew’s offering. We’ll just have to wait and see, so I can’t criticize him or suggest people shouldn’t purchase the package.

[Anonymous]

“Excuse the sidetrack, but – such as what? “

Ralph – doing my best to not sound like a high school term paper “Since the beginning of time..”. I’m a laymen at best but I think a classic example is hypatia and the library of Alexandria proving the heliocentric model and elliptical orbits before being burned to the ground for political reasons. My understanding was that it took Kepler ~900(?) years later to catch us back up. A more recent example was my experience in Cancer research in ~2008. I witnessed several cases where professors were intentionally withholding or misleading their peers so that no one would discover a major finding before them. A cringe to think how much closer we’d be to a cure if information was more widely shared.

In terms of outdoor examples, simplist I can offer is that I can’t even remember where the awesome local spot to go river tubing was. There are several paid locations nearby but there was a great free spot I went to, 2 summers ago where the river bends so you could park, hitch 10 minutes down and then tube for 2 hours back to your car.

Paul’s phrasing of a balanced approach and Ralph’s example of Skurka’s waypoints both sound fair to me.

 

[Billy Ray]

“I think Skurka has a reasonable balance – his maps are series of waypoints, rather than a complete track.”

I think he should be hung… no waypoints, no guide books… keep your trap shut… IMHO :)

billy

[Jerry Adams]

I post GPS tracks and detailed descriptions, but mostly just trails and a few cross country routes but I don’t think they’re too sensitive

Occasionally I’ve run into someone that talked about these great descriptions they got from the web, and I said “that’s mine”.  Kind of cool.

One person set their tent pretty close to mine which was obnoxious, but I should have selected a more out of the way place.  If it wasn’t my description, they probably would have got there anyway.

[Alexander S]

I would settle for a brief description of approach road conditions for those of us who don’t drive Hummers.

 

[Ralph Burgess]

….a classic example is hypatia and the library of Alexandria proving the heliocentric model and elliptical orbits before being burned to the ground for political reasons. My understanding was that it took Kepler ~900(?) years later to catch us back up. A more recent example was my experience in Cancer research in ~2008. I witnessed several cases where professors were intentionally withholding or misleading their peers so that no one would discover a major finding before them. A cringe to think how much closer we’d be to a cure if information was more widely shared.

As for pre-Enlightenment days, you are right, of course.   That’s why we basically knew very little until Englightment values took hold – humility about knowledge and a regard for evidence propelled us out of the Dark Ages.   But I feel that we’ve done pretty well since then.

The cancer research example that you raise is a tricky issue though.   It is certainly true that these things happen.   But it’s far from clear to me that we would progress any faster under any different overall model for conducting scientific research.   By analogy – democracy and capitalism are the the worst systems for running a society, except for all the alternatives that have ever been tried.

Scientific research operates to some degree on a loosely capitalistic model, where the currency is reputation as much as money.   And, just as in a capitalist economy, that potential personal reward means that a whole lot of super-smart, highly motivated and ambitious people work very hard at it.   And, just as with a capitalist economy, the downside is the same – sometimes public-spirited cooperation for the common good is compromised.   But we need that motivation of personal reward, or most people would just not work so hard at it.   Many bright people already waste their brains in Wall Street instead of doing scientific research.   Despite some notable exceptions, my general experience of scientific research is that people are a lot more civilized, mutually cooperative and public spirited than the average citizen.   And, most important, there is nowhere to hide from reality in the current system – any mistakes or fraud are inevitably outed by competitive peers.    An imperfect system, for sure, but I think it’s fundamentally the right one.

[Anonymous]

“But it’s far from clear to me that we would progress any faster under any different overall model for conducting scientific research.   By analogy – democracy and capitalism are the the worst systems for running a society, except for all the alternatives that have ever been tried.”

Ralph – I won’t argue against capitalism. I ‘d argue though that freedom of information IS the ultimate democratic capitalism. If you want to reward scientist, do it with fame and fortune, but not with competitive advantages (information) that allow them to work slower. While my philosophy might sound horribly utopian I tend to think that even if people continuously rip off your ideas, eventually it becomes clear to everyone where the ideas are coming from.

I have a book of essays by prominent scientist somewhere on the shelf. One of my favorite essays observed that innovation tends to come in sprints every 30 years. Author speculated it was due to the retirement cycles of leaders in STEM fields and bringing in new ways of thought. Of course he may have just been trying to be optimistic in a book geared towards college students.

In terms of backpacking, I learn about quite a few awesome trips from people who are the information. If relied solely on exploration, odds are I’d still be exploring the pedimont woods of North Carolina and never seen the diversity of locations offered elsewhere.

 

 

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