water carry in winter

[Diane Pinkers]

Does anyone use a bladder, with an insulated drinking hose, in winter-time conditions?  I do not backpack in winter, just daytime snowshoe treks in the PNW.  Temps are maybe in the 30’s if anything.  That’s assuming we get enough snow to do anything with–last year my snowshoes never left the garage.

I’ve never like using Nalgene or other bottles, simply because I drink more if I have it handy to sip from.  If I have to stop and dig a bottle out of my pack it is less likely that I’ll do it.  This season, though, I’m switching from a dedicated Black Diamond pack with an insulated drink tube port in the shoulder harness to a lighter pack with more capacity, and I will need to figure out what to do with my water.

[Roger Caffin]

First of all, you do NOT need to be drinking all the time.

The myth that you do comes to you courtesy of the sports drink mfrs, the water bladder mfrs, and several other nut cases. We would drink once every 2.5 hrs – breakfast, morning tea, lunch, afternoon tea and dinner. Morning tea, I will add, is a coffee ritual.

In fact, I will go so far as to state that you cannot become dehydrated in 2.5 hrs walking, even if you try. You might get a dry mouth under some conditions, but that is NOT a sign of dehydration. It just means you should shut your mouth :-)

So we use 1.25 L rocket-base bottles in our packs, and NO drinking tubes. That’s it for the last 40 years.

Cheers

 

 

 

[Gary Dunckel]

I gave up using a hydration bladder when doing snowshoe day-trips here in CO. When the temperature dipped to below ~ 28* F, the bite valve would freeze up, rendering the system useless. Now I simply carry a liter in each side pocket and stop and sip when I want to. If it’s predicted to be below +20* F, I use the heavy wide-mouth Nalgenes, and carry them upside down in the pockets. Water freezes from the top down, which is important to remember when winter camping. The technique to employ then (at bedtime) is to shove the bottles into the snow, top down, put more snow over the bottle to bury it, and place some sort of marker on top to remind you just where you put the bottles. The water seldom ever freezes, at least when the overnight ambient is above 0* F.

[Andy F]

One way I like to keep water convenient and not freeze over in the winter is to keep a 16 oz wide-mouth Nalgene or 1 liter Platy inside my jacket. Generally, I attach it to a loose cord, which is either around my neck or attached to a pack strap to prevent losing it in deep snow. The pack hip belt and jacket is generally what supports it.

[Rick M]

I found it useful to blow air back and clear the valve and hose of water after sipping in freezing conditions. Keeps the water flowing most of the time.

[Jim Colten]

Keep in mind that the OP was talking about water for day trips with temps near freezing, not overnight and not so cold.  But since replies have wondered into broader territory …

I don’t tend to do hose drinking but do acknowledge the OP’s preference, in fact I tend to be not disciplined to drink enough if it I have to take my pack off.  Because of that, on workout hikes (I don’t want to stop) or backpacking in very hot weather I will drink from a hose.

For winter (colder than the OP’s stated temp range) I do like Andy suggests … some sort of water container hanging from my neck inside the outer shell or inside the next layer if REALLY cold.  Here is my current neck bag:

That is a sub-liter platy not currently sold (700ml?).  One liter would be fine but I might use a wider neck strap (.75 inch grosgrain??)  fir the added weight.  There should be a push-pull cap in that pic.  The bag is generic fleece.  I’ll be adding another strap at the lower corners.  It’ll go around my chest to help hold the bag in place.  The water always stays warm, or at least tepid.

700 ml does not last all day.  It get’s refilled from other containers.  Bottles inside the pack near my back would remain liquid but I’m shy about water inside the pack so those other containers are a pair of 1 liter <span class=”scayt-misspell”>Hunersdorf</span> bottles in a cozy in exterior pockets.

The cozy is reflectix and the bottle goes in with the lid end at the bottom of the cozy.  Would be a bit better if the cozies had lids … maybe this year:-)  Start with the water hot.  Cozies could be made of CCF foam, synthetic insulation with fabric covers, insulbrite … you name it.  I’m sure that Forty Below bottle boots work very well for those not MYOG inclined, I might try them.

So much for day use but the same gear comes with me for overnight trips.  My options are limited relative to some folks because I use quilts instead of a sleeping bag (bothersome keeping loose items inside the quilt. The neck bag stays on all night so I can sip if (when) I get dry mouth, also useful for taking meds that need water but no food in stomach.   Fuel canisters and the water storage containers go inside a stuff sack and are buried deep in snow (location well marked in some way … marked well enough to be found if we get a lot of overnight new snow).  Water containers should be lid down as explained elsewhere in this thread.   That approach has always left me with enough liquid water for breakfast and for starting to melt snow for the next day’s day use.

Edit:  I meant to also say that I think my neck bag setup would work with a shortened drink tube and maybe a tube and bite valve insulator if you keep the entire tube and bite valve inside your shell between sips … clipped to the neck strap near the bag.  Might be able to skip the insulator, needs to be tested.

 

[BlackHatGuy]

“Bottles inside the pack near my back would remain but I’m shy about water inside the pack so those other containers are a pair of 1 liter Hunersdorf bottles in a cozy in exterior pockets.”

 

I love the Hunersdorf bottles for winter trips. I bought the bottles and neoprene cozies from 40 Below – they’ve worked wonderfully for the two winter trips I’ve taken them on.

[Mark]

Tried bottles but much prefer to use a hydration bladder and i have felt the symptoms of dehydration after a couple of hours hiking.

That be said, i do prefer to take small sips on a regular basis than gulp water down at less regular intervals, it just works better for me.

To stop the hose freezing i do as Rick suggests and blow the water back down the tube when finished sipping.

I don’t do really cold weather hiking, but for the odd below freezing hike/ride i do this works great.

[David Thomas]

As a gulper (not a sipper), I generally agree with Roger. But when hiking uphill in the Grand Canyon at 105F or a day of shadeless field work in Low Cal at 117F, I wouldn’t have wanted to go 2.5 hours – I’d drink well over gallon in that time.

[Andreas K]

For temperatures in the 30’s I have used, and will continue to use, a bladder with an insulated hose (although I wonder how much that insulation actually helps). Seems to be fine as long as you blow back the water if below freezing.

In colder temperatures, my experience is similar to Gary’s, i.e. hose freezes below mid 20’s or so. For this season I have also bought the Hünersdorff, and plan to DIY something similar to what Jim did, but I might just give the bladder plus neck back a go.

[JP]

“I love the Hunersdorf bottles for winter trips. I bought the bottles and neoprene cozies from 40 Below – they’ve worked wonderfully for the two winter trips I’ve taken them on.”

+1
I use the same setup. The 1.0L 40Below bottle boot fits perfectly inside the 1.5L bottle boot for a double layer of insulation. For the times you may need extra insulation, maybe at night.

[Eric Blumensaadt]

I use a Camelbak in my pack with a hand warmer inside a light sock next to the bladder and a heavy black neoprene tube sheath with the tube running inside a zippered tube protector on my right pack strap. The bladder sits inside a zippered compartment between the pack and my back. Against my back is mesh covered foam. Heat from my back eventually gets into the bladder compartment.

So for me the real problem is how to keep the bite valve from freezing. I’ve made a little “mitten” from doubled fleece which is tied to the insulated tube with light elastic cord from a fabric shop. So far it works, down to 10 F that is. Beyond that I haven’t tested it. I do have a black rubber Camelbak cap that snaps over the bite valve (and under the fleece “mitten”) which likely also keeps the valve warmer.

For sub-zero weather I use a high quality 1 liter wine bota inside my parka. That was my 1st solution to the  problem decades ago before you young whippersnappers had “hydration bladders”,

 

 

[Ken Thompson]

Wow, so people disagree with Roger? Like bones don’t grow.

[Tipi Walter]

Also a new fan of the 1.5 liter Hunersdorf bottle which I took out on my last trip.  Figured out a way to lash in some old guyline cord as a hang strap for the thing on the back of my pack—

 

[Travis Leanna]

ok, so enlighten me on the advantages of these Hunersdorf bottles versus a traditional nalgene.

Are they lighter? Will they work with a Steripen Opti? Is it worth it to buy new bottles? The smaller mouth makes me think they’d be easier to drink out of. Durability? Even when I carry my Nalgene upside down I’ve had it freeze near the mouth. They’re durable enough to whack with a fist or against a tree (or upside the head of an obnoxious hiking partner) to knock loose some of the ice.

I like the convenience of a hydration bladder/tube, but don’t like the added weight and extra piece of gear. Mine froze in winter, even if I blew water back. Stopped using the tube a few year ago.

 

[Roger Caffin]

Wow, so people disagree with Roger?

Oh yeah, all the time. To be sure, they are always wrong, but people are entitled to be as wrong as they want, and as often as they want. (Oz humour, right?)

Hunersdorf bottles – just another brand, like Nalge. There are others as well, like Kartell (but I don’t think K are as good).

Cheers

 

[Bob Moulder]

Gatorade bottles with bubble mailers (use 2 of ’em if it’s really cold) for covers work surprisingly well.

I left a 20-oz Gatorade bottle out all night at 10°F with 2 covers and it did not freeze. Starting water temp was warm-ish, about 80°F or so.

[Jerry Adams]

“Wow, so people disagree with Roger?…To be sure, they are always wrong…”

I keep a list of all the times I’ve been right and Roger has been wrong.  Also Richard, David, Tom and Kat on chaff,…  Actually that’s ridiculous that we always get sucked into defending a position and having to be right…: )

Roger’s right on this one – re-used soda bottle inside pack and it won’t freeze.  No need to drink all the time.  Rocket bottles?  Must be an Oz name…

I need maybe 1 pint of water per day.  Maybe 2 or even 4 if it’s a long, hot day of vigorous exercise.  Stop and drink every hour or two.  More than that and I’m just going to pee it back out.  No reason to carry extra weight I’m just going to pee on the ground.

[Mark Ferwerda]

One helpful thing I have done in the winter when using a bladder is to stick the mouthpiece in my jacket. I usually don’t have the jacket zipped up all the way and I can fit the mouthpiece inside under the chest strap. This prevents the mouthpiece from freezing (or melt the ice if needed).

[Overshot]

We use the Hunersdorf bottles and they seem o work pretty good with the 40 below covers.  Its nice that they are soft then you can break up the ice that forms in them.  We have left them out on zero degree nights with the booties, and they were liquid in the morning, but cold. They were only warm to start with, not boiling.

[Mark]

No reason to carry extra weight I’m just going to pee on the ground.

Seems like fundamentally flawed “logic” to me Jerry.

If that’s the case then why drink at all?

Why wipe our bums when we poop, as by your logic we’ll only get them dirty again?

Why wash our clothes, why eat, why shower, wash our cars, clean our houses and so on……. you see the “logic” starts to fall apart.

If you carry 500g of water or you drink 500g of water you’re still carrying 500g of water.

If you gulp down say 1 litre of water your body will not be able to process that water as efficiently as if you were to drink the 1 litre slower.

So you end up tipping just under 1kg (1 litre of water) down your throat that your body can’t use as efficiently as if you were to carry it in a bottle and take smaller more regular sips, so you’re actually carry more “useless” weight than if you were to carry it in a bottle.

 

We’re all adults here so should be able to make our own choices for our bodies, but i just don’t see why someone would risk dehydration for the sake of carrying a bottle of water, seems like it’s cutting your nose off to spite your face.

If you get dehydrated you start to feel fatigued, can lead to confusion, you don’t recover as quickly or as well, you are more at risk of hypothermia all these risks seem to be pretty strong compared to carrying 500g of water

 

[Jerry Adams]

yes, it goes without saying, each person has to make their own decisions which depend on the person and the conditions and just what they feel like doing without any good reason

you have to drink enough for biological functions, and beyond that, it’s just wasted weight

I don’t run or go above 70 or 80 F or so.  More exercise and temperature require more water, and can have more severe side effects.

a few days ago, I walked 10 miles with backpack, maybe 40 F, I drank maybe 8 ounces of water so I threw the other 8 ounces out,  My pee was fairly clear at the end, nowhere near dehydrated

I always drink several pints before I take off, so I start well hydrated

especially in warmer weather, if you get a little dehydrated, it’s not that big a deal.  Drink a pint of water and relax in the shade.  I almost always encounter a water source during the day, so I’ll drink a pint and then refill for the rest of the day, so that’s 3 pints in one day

Once, it was cool but raining so I walked 10 miles out and didn’t feel like stopping because it was raining.  Then, I got very tired and could barely move.  I ate and drank and was okay in 15 minutes.  I think that was more food than water.  I am more careful to eat during the day now, even if I’m not feeling like it.

 

[Mark]

Few points i’d like to put forward please Jerry

you have to drink enough for biological functions, and beyond that, it’s just wasted weight

My point was that it doesn’t matter weight wise if you drink it or carry it, even if the water is in your belly or bladder you’re still carrying the weight of the water

I don’t run or go above 70 or 80 F or so.  More exercise and temperature require more water, and can have more severe side effects.

This is a old wives tale, in reality i’ve found that dehydration is more of a problem in colder weather and even more so in wet cold weather.

In warm weather we tend to feel thirsty and most know to keep hydrated.

In cold weather you can sweat just as much if not more, in an ideal world we would remove and add layers as our effort increases and decreases, in reality very few of us do, some times we just can’t be bothered removing the rucksack, top and putting it away, other times we’ll unzip our tops in the hope it’ll cool us down but we know we’re only kidding ourselves as that waterfall of sweat starts rolling down our back.

Now imagine if it’s raining and we have our waterproofs zipped up.

Not only will we sweat more, we’ll also feel less thirsty as we are breathing in rain drops and damp air (for us mouth breathers at least).

So think that we have cold wet weather, we are sweating more, we don’t feel as thirsty as we would do if it was hot, then put into the mix that even mild dehydration will quicken the onset of hypothermia.

So it’s not just summers we have to be cautious

I always drink several pints before I take off, so I start well hydrated

Again though you are still carrying the weight of this water.

If you jump on some scales and drink 500g of water your body weight will go up 500g, just because the fluid has entered the body it’s not free weight.

especially in warmer weather, if you get a little dehydrated, it’s not that big a deal.  Drink a pint of water and relax in the shade.  I almost always encounter a water source during the day, so I’ll drink a pint and then refill for the rest of the day, so that’s 3 pints in one day

Strongly disagree, speaking from personal experience it can take hours to start feeling the benefits of drinking after dehydration, it can also affect things like recovery and even our performance the following days.

Then there are the how dehydration relates to hypothermia, not to mention how it affects our food processing, especially for those of us that eat dehydrated food.

For you thru-hike guys regular dehydration can be a major cause of kidney stones.

I’m sure many of us have also felt that bloated feeling after gulping fluids down, this often leads to a stitch (no idea what you guys over there call it, in England a stitch is that we get round our kidneys)

As i say we’re all adults here, we all hike differently most of us in different areas and under different conditions and weather, but my points are

1/ If you drink 500g of water of carry it the weight is the same, IF we didn’t carry a container we might be saving that weight, but most of us do any way.

So there are no real world advantages weight wise to drinking rather than carrying a our supply of water

2/ Even mild dehydration can cause long term health problems if it’s done on a regular basis

3/ You are just as if not more likely to get dehydrated in colder wetter weather than you are in summer

4/ Even mild dehydration can have major negative impacts on our performance, both physically and mentally, often it’s not realised till after we’ve rehydrated

5/ Dehydration is closely linked to Hypothermia, so it’s just as if not important to stay hydrated in the colder seasons

These are the risks as i see them.

And what are the gains?

There is non that i can see, you’re still carrying that 500g of water if you drink it so there is no weight saving, even if there was i’m not particularly fit but even i can’t notice the weight of 500g of used water at the end of the hike.

As i say hike your own hike, but from my point of view i think it’s common sense to carry a little extra water if you don’t know for certain there is a refill point on the hike.

 

P.S.

I have planned hikes to take in a water source (a small lake on this hike) only come across a dead sheep in the lake, i’ve also come across natural springs that were dried up, so i think it’s wise to carry a little extra especially if you are in remote locations.

 

[Jerry Adams]

are you calling me an old wive??? : )

When I start hydrated, I pee any excess fairly quickly and I then get to a state where I have the perfect amount.

http://health.clevelandclinic.org/2013/10/what-the-color-of-your-urine-says-about-you-infographic/

no color – you’re drinking too much water

pale yellow or straw colored – normal

dark yellow – normal but drink some water soon

amber or honey colored – your body isn’t getting enough water, drink some now

purple – there is no such thing as purple urine (Cleveland Clinic has sense of humor?)

I’m just saying that as long as your urine is pale yellow or even dark yellow occasionally, you’re okay.  No point drinking so much your urine is clear and you’re peeing a lot.  And do it based on if you’re thirsty.  When it’s hot I’ll drink 3 pints during the day, and even then, my urine will get darker – hard to keep up.

There was a recent fad to drink extra water, but then experts have mostly moved away from this.

Yeah, it can take hours to totally rehydrate.  Rarely I’ll have dark urine, and it really isn’t until the next morning that it gets pale yellow again.

http://www.outsideonline.com/2011566/how-can-i-make-sure-im-hydrated-hot-end-summer-workouts

they say not to drink a lot before you start because it decreases ADH which results in your body not conserving water.  hmmm…  I guess I don’t care, I’ll just have to drink a little more until my ADH goes back up?  They also say to sip gradually – that could be a case for all of you hydration bladder with hose, but stopping once an hour doesn’t seem like a burden for me.

they say to drink until your urine is pale yellow, and when you’re thirsty

after exercising, drink a lot

this all is more aimed at athletes rather than old farts out enjoying the wilderness like me

“But dehydration and water-weight loss during exercise do not impair performance until they approach 5 to 7 percent—not just 2 or 3 percent, as once believed.” – alluding to the old, now out of favor advice to drink more than is necesary

[Gary Dunckel]

I have had two different experiences that I base my hydration philosophy upon. For 10 years I volunteered with a Federal medical response team (DMAT, and also a NMRT team). When we deployed, and even when we did a summer team practice exercise in hot weather, we each received a phone call the night before to remind us to start hydrating immediately. Our deployments were usually in response to hurricanes, which happen in hot and humid places in the South, conditions we in Colorado aren’t used to. In addition to flying for 2-3 hours in a dry airplane, our medical tents were usually set up in a parking lot, like at Houston’s Astrodome during Katrina. Half the time we were being exposed to direct sun (the night shift had it far easier). Though we had some shade tents we could take occasional breaks in, the ambient temperatures at ground level exceeded 100* F. 12-hour work shifts in that heat/humidity didn’t help, and within a day or so we were all peeing dark orange.

The conventional advice from the Fed docs was that one can’t absorb much more than 500 cc of water per hour, and that cool to cold water absorbed a bit faster than warm (besides helping to cool your insides). Also, drinking water with food slows down the water’s absorption, since it is only taken up as fast as the food it is mixed with is. We would try to pop a 17 oz. bottle of water every hour, all day long. Most hardly ever peed, having sweat so much all day long. We had a few hours at night to eat something and then get some sleep, and we would drink a couple liters of water then to try to more fully rehydrate. Most of us were just barely able to stay on top of the dehydration battle, but usually 2-3 out of 50 of us would be taken out during these 2-week deployments . In these conditions one must take hydration very seriously.

My second experience was in 2013 when I spent a month hiking in the lower-elevation north side of Yellowstone N.P. in July. My itinerary was to do 3 nights in one valley, then spend 2-3 zero days in either Gardiner or Silver Gate to do day hikes & laundry and eat good food. Repeat…repeat…repeat. Temperatures were fairly warm for YNP, usually 80-85* F, and there is scant shade in the north of the Park. My first 4-day trip into Slough Creek took me to the orange pee stage and I didn’t ever fully recover until 3 weeks later, even though I was drinking over a gallon (more like 6 liters) of water each day. I felt I was sub-clinical, and I had no symptoms other than dark urine. The point here is that once you get a bit dehydrated, it is very difficult to fully recover, even with some zero days thrown in.

One last thing about dehydration you should be aware of–there’s a condition called hyponatremia. This is a very dangerous thing. When you sweat a lot, you lose a good amount of your body’s salt. When you drink a lot of water, you lose even more as the kidneys remove some of the blood’s salt. If this is our routine, then we must absolutely replace our lost electrolyes. Otherwise, bad things can happen.

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