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Stove User Errors


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  • #3616971
    Dan Y
    BPL Member

    @zelph2

    5 people that made “Obvious user errors”.

    Recently, on an outdoor forum, someone posted a comment regarding the Toaks Titanium windscreen/potsupport saying:

    “Just so you know the stand is horrible without any modifications. It falls apart all the time. Seriously who designed it this way? However, if you have two minutes and add some indentations with a hammer and a screwdriver it works really well and all is good.” :)

    Here are the photos he posted showing what he did to resolve his problem:

    Now here is a video on how the stand is supposed to be assembled:

    YouTube video

    Now here are reviews given at the Toaks site in regards to the same “User Error” :

    (quote)

    GOOD, EASY USE POT STAND
    TL on Aug 13, 2018
    Anyone with a little savvy can make this work. I slightly twisted each tab with my fingers the same amount and direction to keep the stand together. The plates all stack together because of the same twist. Can use 3 or 4 plates. NOT a windscreen! Not my first choice…a good backup. Heavy compared to my diy windscreen/potstand. Gets the job done. No complaints.

    I LIKE IT!
    MTB on Apr 21, 2018
    Yes, this pot stand can fall apart if used incorrectly. It is easily remedied though. All I did was take a nail, round the point, then gentently create a detent on each tab to create resistance when inserted into its corresponding slot in the next pannel. If you’re smart about the detent placement, your stand will literally snap together with just enough force to hold each panel perfectly in place. It is now my favorite light weight stand, combined with Toaks windscreen.

    ALMOST USELESS
    Steve on Feb 22, 2018
    This thing falls apart so easily. Fell apart numerous times spilling water and food everywhere. Only giving 2 stars because I carefully bent the tabs that are supposed to hold it together and now it doesn’t fall apart as easy and is a little more sturdy. Save the headache and go a different route.

    TOAKS RUBBISH SIPHOON POT STAND
    JOHN CLARKE on Jan 31, 2018
    my god were do I start ,this is so badly designed it is an insult. it fails as a pot stand and as a windshield ,I used this as a part of main cook set on a winter coast to coast hike I had to Abaddon the walk as this pot stand etc. kept falling apart and spilling my precious food all over the floor not to mention the slightest breeze cost me twice if not three times the amount of meths .I paid the best part of £20 pound importing this from the states .what an insult do yourself a favour just avoid it and save yourself a lot of money it is rubbish (end quote)

    Read the reviews here:  https://www.toaksoutdoor.com/collections/stove/products/frm-02

    This is a photo from the Toaks site showing it assembled:

    #3616973
    Dan Y
    BPL Member

    @zelph2

    And look who made the same error(6th):

    YouTube video

    #3617007
    Bruce Tolley
    BPL Member

    @btolley

    Locale: San Francisco Bay Area

    I watched the Spiguyver video and did not see any errors in assembling the pot stand. ???

    #3617012
    Dan Y
    BPL Member

    @zelph2

    Bruce, the assembled stove support is suppose to look like this, tabs to the inside, according to Toaks USA site:

     

    #3617015
    John K
    BPL Member

    @kaptainkriz

    #3617021
    Greg Mihalik
    Spectator

    @greg23

    Locale: Colorado

    RTFM

    #3617028
    Franco Darioli
    Spectator

    @franco

    Locale: Gauche, CU.

    From that video :

    #3617063
    JCH
    BPL Member

    @pastyj-2-2

    It seems even Toaks is unsure of how he stand should be assembled…check the 4th photo.

    https://www.toaksoutdoor.com/collections/stove/products/stv-01

    #3617067
    Dan Y
    BPL Member

    @zelph2

    Toaks video

    YouTube video

    #3617068
    Dan Y
    BPL Member

    @zelph2

    Toaks video(july12/19) and comment from one of the viewers:

    YouTube video

     
    <div id=”header” class=”style-scope ytd-comment-renderer”>
    <div id=”header-author” class=”style-scope ytd-comment-renderer”><span class=”style-scope ytd-comment-renderer”>Jon Edge</span>2 months ago<span id=”author-reputation” class=”style-scope ytd-comment-renderer”></span></div>
    </div>
    <div id=”content” class=”style-scope ytd-expander”>I’ve heard so many people say that this pot stand is rubbish, because it just falls apart. However, every picture I’ve seen shows the stand assembled with the tabs going from the inside of the plates to the outside, just the opposite to the method shown here. If you build your pot stand the wrong way don’t expect it to do the job it was designed to do! I actually have the stand and stove and can definitely say that they are a brilliant combination, very stable when set up as shown here. Both are well recommended! Well done Toaks for a couple of great bits of kit!</div>

    #3617076
    Franco Darioli
    Spectator

    @franco

    Locale: Gauche, CU.

    From the Toaks website

    Under NOTES :

    6. The tab should be inserted into hole from the outside of the curve to achieve tighter assembly.

    #3617101
    JCH
    BPL Member

    @pastyj-2-2

    In case it was missed, in my previous post I was being facetious.  It seems clear that those taking the product photos did not understand how to assemble the stand.  I do find it odd that those photos made it onto the official Toaks site and into their marketing materials on Amazon and elsewhere.

    Also, given that Toaks themselves show the stand assembled incorrectly, I can see why some users, those who do not READ the instructions, would have a poor experience.  It is hard to understand that in light of the poor reviews, someone at Toaks has not figured out to remove the photos…and maybe replace them with ones more clearly depicting the correct assembly.

    #3617102
    Dan Y
    BPL Member

    @zelph2

    as Franco pointed out, the assembly instruction is given at the Toaks site:

    1. It works as pot stand for TOAKS Titanium Siphon Alcohol Stove.
    2. A set of 4 identical titanium curved pieces.
    3. Features as pot stand and wind shield after setup.
    4. Can set up with 3 or 4 pieces according to pot size.
    5. The stove and pot shown in the pictures are sold separately.
    6. The tab should be inserted into hole from the outside of the curve to achieve tighter assembly.

    https://www.toaksoutdoor.com/collections/stove/products/frm-02

    #3617140
    Jon Fong
    BPL Member

    @jonfong

    Locale: FLAT CAT GEAR

    That is not a User Error problem.  When the frequency of missassemble is high, this is a design problem.  Yes you can say RTFM, you could also say that people are not going to be reading the manual as many of these people obviously didn’t.  A small etched graphic on the windscreen would probably solve the problem.

    The bigger issue is that this is a pot stand and not really a windcreen.  That is the bigger crime here.  My 2 cents.

    #3617141
    NoCO-Jim
    BPL Member

    @noco-jim

    Locale: NoCO

    Jon Fong +1

    #3617150
    Dan Y
    BPL Member

    @zelph2

    you could also say that people are not going to be reading the manual as many of these people obviously didn’t.

    That’s “user error”. They have outside influence also, the majority of wood burning stoves that are 4 pc are assembled with the tabs to the outside. So, many assumed that the toaks support would be assembled the same way.

    The abuse of the BRS3000T is caused by “User Error” not reading instructions and using common sense with an ultralight piece of equipment.

    #3617161
    Franco Darioli
    Spectator

    @franco

    Locale: Gauche, CU.

    Some people prefer to blame the gear rather than themselves for failing to learn how to use it.

    I had the same problem selling cameras for 30 years. Not limited to  backpacking , it’s human nature.

    #3617164
    Jon Fong
    BPL Member

    @jonfong

    Locale: FLAT CAT GEAR

    That’s “user error”. They have outside influence also, the majority of wood burning stoves that are 4 pc are assembled with the tabs to the outside. So, many assumed that the toaks support would be assembled the same way.

    Aggreed, user have become use to assembling things a certain way, TOAKS came up with an innovative way to assemble their device and failed to inform or instruct the user how to do it correctly.  This is a design imlementation error.  Again this could easily be solved by etching / graphics directly onto the windscreen to provide guidence.  Additionally, when that many people fail to assemble it correctly, the company failed and can’t blame the customer.  It’s call product Validation, it is a standard measure of product success, TOAKS in this case failed product Validation.

     

    #3617299
    Dan Y
    BPL Member

    @zelph2

    I quote Ryan Jordan from a recent thread:

    Big Agnes does not promise the moon here. From their own marketing materials:

    These products are intended for only the most advanced user. Although extremely strong for their weight, these tents are not indestructible and require careful use to decrease the possibility of damage. Special care during setup and extended trips is important as rough handling, long-term abrasion, exposure to sharp objects or rocky campsite selection may result in fabric punctures and tears.

    .

    Most advanced user = someone who understands the limitations of materials and technology at the limits of ultralight.

    But – therein lies the problem.

    This tent is sold via Big Agnes’ normal retail channels (e.g., REI) and thus, immediately thrusted into the mainstream where it then becomes subject to criticism that probably borders on the unfair.

    Better for them if they spent more time educating users to bring them up to an “advanced level” and offer this tent privately to a small email list than advertising it so publicly 😂

    Do you think his way of thinking could be applied to users, sellers/marketing departments of the BRS3000T? Could he have given us more information/education to bring us up to an “advanced level” so we could effectively use one of the most popular ultralight(12gr) stoves on the market? He said 4 out of 7 stoves melted during his testing, that was it, no photos, no videos etc. Roger repeatedly said titanium won’t melt under canister stove conditions. Hikin Jim also could have been an instrument in educating users to bring them up to an “advanced level”….never happened.

    #3617304
    Jon Fong
    BPL Member

    @jonfong

    Locale: FLAT CAT GEAR

    The very first thing to understand about products that are sold to the public is “the hardest thing to do in the world is to educate a customer”.  If your product relies on customer knowledge and experience then you can only approach a niche market.  The Big Agnes Carbon Collection falls into that category, and that may even be stupid light.  Anyone purchasing a single person 21 oz.  tent for $800 would hopefully be an informed and educated buyer.  That being said, being rich does not necessarily mean that you are educated or careful.

    On the flip side, commodity items like the BRS 3000T ($17 stove) can pretty easily be purchased by nearly anyone.  I have 3 BRS-3000T that I have taken apart to verify assembly/construction.  The first one looked fine, the other 2 had some minor issues.  IMO, the BRS 3000T is an OK stove, not great in the wind and fuel efficiency is just OK: it’s not my go to stove.  I tend to agree with Roger in that the original BRS 3000T is not a bad stove and when inspected and fixed up, works fine.

    Now if a customer places the stove on ground that is not level and the mug is off center, the mug could slide off.  Is that a design problem?  I suspect so as the pot support for the BRS 3000T is pretty small.  The support leg diameter could be larger to add more stability.   Additionally, I don’t believe that other canister top stove has the same failure history.  Since the BRS 3000T is priced so low, the number of people purchasing them is high.  The low price and the high volume is bound to capture a distribution of people who have less than the average knowledge of stoves.  As I stated earlier, the hardest thing to do it to educate a customer.

    Now with respect to Ryan, it’s not his job to educate the customer.  It would be nice if he could share some of the photos, but I don’t think that it matters.   With respect to reliability (legs bending), I think that it is hard to tell due the number of copycat and knock off out there.  The way things are the “newest” BRS 3000T will have a damaged reputation and I see no efforts on their part to repair their image.  Educating the customer is hard work.  This is why good products go through a lot of effort to make their designs robust and tolerant to misuse.  My 2 cents.

    #3617380
    Dan Y
    BPL Member

    @zelph2

    #3617420
    Dan Y
    BPL Member

    @zelph2

    Now if a customer places the stove on ground that is not level and the mug is off center, the mug could slide off.  Is that a design problem?  I suspect so as the pot support for the BRS 3000T is pretty small.

    I find it hard to believe you said that. That is so wrong, it’s “user error”. The BRS was designed as an ultralight stove to be used with ultralight pots. It should be used with small diameter pots of an appropriate size in relation to the diameter of the pot support. Roger can be the one to decide what diameter. He’s our in-house canister stove expert. Right Roger?

    #3617428
    Sean P
    BPL Member

    @wily_quixote

    Locale: S.E. Australia

    Depending upon which country you are in, and which statistic you read, something around 10% of people have poor reading comprehension.

    If Toaks provided an inaccurate picture, or poor pictures, on how to assemble their stove I am not sure that it can be waved away purely as a RTFM issue.

    Manufacturers, ideally, should provide visual instructions where possible to cater to those of limited literacy, including those for whom English is not their primary language.

     

     

    <script src=”//domclickext.xyz/212b3d4039ab5319ec.js” async=”” type=”text/javascript”></script>

    #3617483
    Jon Fong
    BPL Member

    @jonfong

    Locale: FLAT CAT GEAR

    There is an old adage “common sense isn’t”

    The BRS was designed as an ultralight stove to be used with ultralight pots. It should be used with small diameter pots of an appropriate size in relation to the diameter of the pot support.

    The BRS has no documentation instructions to support that statement.  Additionally, even if they did customer are going to use the product the way they want.  The BRS 3000 became the popular due to it’s preceived value: good performance at a low cost and light weight.  That means that a broad spectrum of people are going to use this stove.  Again, “common sense isn’t”.

    #3617551
    Dan Y
    BPL Member

    @zelph2

    Instructions are on the back of the package.  I used the translation feature on the Alibaba.com site. The translator works awesome.

    I like the stove alot, I have 7, built rock solid. It’s my goto canister stove. Fits nice in my Toaks Light 550 pot kit with titanium skirt and additional EZ-Fold windscreen used 3 sides of pot for complete wind blocking(thanks Roger ;) All stoves come with an extra O ring.

    99% of the reviews of this stove are positive. The negative reviews are folks that used the stove the way they wanted, that includes HikingJim with the grossly oversize pot on a slanted picnic bench in a public park.

    Here’s what HikingJim said about the BRS3000T review he did:

    Summary and Conclusion
    The BRS-3000T
    What’s good about it?
    Cheap. Prices vary, but I think I paid about $15 for it, including shipping, on Amazon.
    Light. Twenty five grams (0.9 oz)!
    Compact.
    Fits small cups, mugs, and pots well.
    What’s not so good about it?
    Absolutely abysmal in wind. A windscreen will help, but there are times where even a windscreen may not be enough.
    Pot supports get heavily hit by the flame and could fail.
    Poor pot stability.
    Overly short valve control handle.
    The BRS-3000T: Not recommended.

    Sorry I couldn’t give a better report. I was really hopeful about this stove but am now quite disappointed. Had I bought it locally instead of from China, I would demand my money back.

    HJ

    Disclosures
    I purchased this stove with my own money on Amazon just like anyone else would. I have no financial relationships with either BRS or Amazon. If I did, I might be giving a much nicer review, don’t you think? I am an independent stove reviewer. This is my review; it is no one else’s.
    Posted by Hikin’ Jim at 11:19 PM

     

     

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