Ursack failure

[Nick Gatel]

@ngatel I have only see some BV failure, never a Garcia can though.

A while back I was reading about a bear or maybe bears that had learned pushing canisters off a cliff would break them when the hit the ground. Think it was in the Sierra Nevada. Don’t know (or remember) brands.

[Chris R]

Odour proof bags won’t matter squat if a bear has already learned to associate a bag shaped object with a food reward. Maybe that is a fatal flaw of the Ursack, it looks just like any other stuff sack.
The longer a bear is allowed to continue an undesirable action without a negative response from people the more likely it will be to repeat the activity. Maybe if campers were prepared to do something to defend their food, at least by letting the bear know it’s not welcome, instead of just letting the bears get on with it, we’d see less of this activity.

[bradmacmt]

When it comes to bears, “odor proof” isn’t really proven. Undoubtedly the Loksak can help, but I wouldn’t bet anything on it.

Regardless, the people in the link obviously didn’t hang their food correctly for bear country.

 

[Paul Wagner]

Nick–that was/is a bear at the top of Snow Creek Falls in Yosemite. Bear pushes the canister off the cliff, then climbs down to eat whatever has fallen out of the canister.

Camping is now prohibited in that area—and the problem seems to be under control.

[Mike M]

out of curiosity does anyone know offhand what does a ursack with liner weigh vs like size volume canister?

never have been required to use either in Montana, but a SHR trip is in my future :)

[BlackHatGuy]

Mike, if you don’t already own a Bearikade and a Weekender would do, you could borrow mine for your trip instead of buying one.

[BlackHatGuy]

“Oder proof bags were tested in a BPL article using drug stiffing dogs as “bears.” The bags failed miserably.”

And I remember what a ridiculous bunch of crap Ike took from opsak lovers over that test.

I think that the odor proof claims really mean odor proof to humans. But I also think they’re helpful in the wild by significantly cutting down how far the odor can travel, so that a bear has to be near one to get the smells of stuff contained within. I don’t know that, of course, that’s just an assumption.

As far as bears recognizing the bag as containing food when seeing it, I’m not so sure. Bears have terrible eyesight from what I remember reading, I think it’s more likely the smell, but more than willing to be corrected about this.

“The sheer numbers of people now hiking and backpacking in the state in this Age of Covid have surely contributed to more bear encounters, and many of those folks do not keep clean camps,  or they end up camping where previous campers did not exercise good bear protocol.”

I think this might be the main issue, not opsaks in themselves, IMRUO. Staying off the wagon train trails, I think, helps a lot in this regard.

 

[Mike M]

Mike, if you don’t already own a Bearikade and a Weekender would do, you could borrow mine for your trip instead of buying one.

Thanks Doug- that certainly would be a better option!

[James Marco]

Idster, Yeah, bears actually have about the same vision as a human.  I don’t remember the source, though.  From Wikopedia:

“In fact, bears’ eyesight is at least as good as humans’. They also have excellent night vision due to a reflective membrane on the back of their eye.Dec 3, 2013”

I believe their distance vision is not quite as good as a human’s, but near vision is likely much better… on average about the same. But they also see a bit further into the RED range or IR range.

 

[BlackHatGuy]

Thanks James, appreciate the correction.

[bjc]

“out of curiosity does anyone know offhand what does a ursack with liner weigh vs like size volume canister?”

My newer black Ursack with liner weighs 16.15 oz. on my scale and if memory serves, the Bearicade weekender is 31/32 oz., so just under a pound lighter for similar size. (10.6l)

[James Marco]

My hang kit weighs <4oz.

 

[Mike M]

my hang kit weighs under 2 oz :)

 

thanks @bjc

half the weight (a full pound) so I definitely see the appeal of the ursack; I was thinking maybe with the metal liner- not much difference, but a pound is significant

[Bruce Tolley]

This thread has caused me to remember the bear caution bulletin board at Whitney Portal that shows photos all the things that bears have taken out of cars and eaten or tried to eat.

Bears not only see and smell but many have learned that lots of things that humans carry around are edible. The exhibit of photos included: can of Raid with puncture marks, can of motor oil with puncture marks, canister of Coleman propane fuel, etc.

[James Marco]

Yeah, I gotta’ get a cuban food bag one of these days.

 

[Ben H.]

 

I don’t know this area and haven’t been able to discern from the reports: was this a brown or black bear? I guess the failure mechanism of the Ursack doesn’t involve crushing so perhaps the difference doesn’t matter that much compared to canisters.

Bear slobber is disgusting. I really don’t want to eat out of sack full of chewed up mush with slobber on the outside.

With nothing obstructing the teeth puncturing the Ursack, the food inside an intact Ursack would be full of slobber. Not just outside the packaging.

My position on odor proofing is similar to using active carbon filters. Their effectivity is difficult to quantify but they do help. Bears can clearly smell through odor proofing techniques, but reducing the odor may make the effort required to get it no longer worthwhile to a bear. I would guess lower food odor would mean less food in the bears mind.

 

[jscott]

Mike: the Bearikade Scout is 28 ounces and packs much better than a weekender. I can get five days worth of food in one.

[Mike M]

^ ah- good to know- thanks

[BlackHatGuy]

I’ve also got a scout you could borrow, fwiw.

[Mike M]

Doug I’m beginning to think you may have more gear at your place than I do :)

Thanks- hope I can take you up on the offer. God willing, will have the Wonderland Trail crossed off my bucket list in a couple of weeks, so maybe next year for the SHR!

[Jenny A]

Ben H., Colorado has only black bears, which can range in color from cinnamon to brown to black.  Perhaps some north country folk can chime in, but I always understood “brown” bears to be coastal grizzlies.  There are no longer any grizzlies in Colorado, at least that anyone is talking about.

And FWIW, my 6-yr old Ursack with aluminum liner weighs in at 17 oz, much lighter than a plastic alternative.

[Paul McLaughlin]

One issue with “odor proof” bags is that regardless of how well they mask the smell of what’s inside, they still smell  like human on the outside. And these bears know that human=food source, so they will probably give that bag a poke just to check it out. Poke makes a hole, hole releases odor, bear is more interested and gets serious.

[Sam Farrington]

Was surprised to read this thread, because I’ve used ursacks with opsaks for caches a number of times and they’ve remained untouched.  With a couple qualifications:  It was an earlier ursack material, a heavy green Spectra no longer offered; and clips were placed on the opsaks inside that sealed each of them airtight.  Also, the lines were thrown over branches that were at least twice as high as a large bear’s standing height, and not sturdy enough to support a bear that climbed the tree and tried to go out on the branch.  The line from the branch was wrapped around the tree several times before being secured lower down, so as not to offer a bear an obvious grab. The bags were hung well off-trail, so much so that I had to draw maps to find them again.  They were left for periods running from 7 to 10 days.

Agree that once the bear has a whiff of the food, the game is probably over.  The bear will find some way to get the bag down and open it.    So the clips on the opsaks were probably key.  The double clipped opsaks were also tested in the forest at home, hung in common nylon stuffsacks, together with the same bait hung in a stuffsacks about 20 feet away. The stuffsacks without the opsaks always got torn down, and the ones with opsaks protecting the food remained untouched.  The results were posted on BPL a couple times.  Also tested a cheaper competitor to opsak, and it did not work – the stuffsack got torn down.

The clips were called “Clip-n-Seal Bag Clips – Large 10 pack,” and are made of a white plastic broken tube about 12″ long that clips over a smaller tube about 2″ longer so they can be easily unclipped.  Recall they came from Amazon, but not sure.  The tubes can be cut to fit just over the widths of the opsak openings.

Went to all this trouble, because did not want to find my caches invaded after a week’s trekking, with no food and some other small essentials for the next week.  A friend had that experience, but with a human invader, and saw first hand how much of a bummer it is to have to abandon a long distance trek when a cache is invaded.  But she was really frosted that the invader took her small bottle of hooch.

Note that in use of ursacks for camping, I use the kevlar cloth ones, and just hang them up in the same manner well away from the tent site.  And avoid tenting in areas with signs of use by other backpackers or bears, especially berry patches.  Note that this applies to black, not grizzly bears.  Met the latter early on in the Canada rockies, and have stayed away from griz country ever since.

Had a problem only once when forgot a bottle of blueberry Kool-Aid was left in a corner of the vestibule.  Spent the night with a candle lantern hung in the front of the tent, pepper sprayed around the tent, and banging pots.  The bear kept me up all night and did not leave until dawn.  Could have just thrown the bottle out of the tent for the bear, but did not remember it was there.  Still wonder if the reason Kool-Aid withdrew the blueberry flavor from the market after that was because some poor hiker got injured by a bear and sued.

[Chris R]

I’m not surprised the bear hung around. Saraying pepper spray on the ground is not a good idea. Instead of repelling bears it may actually be an attractant. Just like people, while they don’t like capsaicin in their eyes and nose, they do like the taste. Same for my dog. She quickly identified the spot where we had test fired a couple of old cans of bear spray and spent several minutes rolling happily in the vegetation where we had stood.

Good info on the Ursack and odour proof bags though.

[BlackHatGuy]

Sam, I assume you’re talking about these?

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