UL packs: are draw cord closures completely out of fashion?

I prefer draw string tops as well. I basically just gave up with my last two backpacks (there are more important things). Can’t have everything. I have no idea why people went with the roll top — it seems a lot more fussy.

And why? Waterprofness is rarely and argument I’d say.

I disagree. Better water resistance is certainly a good reason to go with a roll top even when the rain is occasional. And it serves as an effective way to compress the load.  Each option has its pros and cons.

I roll the excess fabric on top together as well, with a quite similar result. And if the pack is stuffed up to the top the result is similar as well :)

EDIT: I gave up on the draw cord top as well, but found it so annoying I couldnt stand it. Thats why I am asking for more manufacturers as well, its a pity to miss out on so many otherwise pack designs!

And tbh, I still use a silnylon pack cover when its really raining, dont like to have a soacked pack in the tent. Or a wet foam pad etc. That makes even more old-school I guess :)

I appreciate the water resistance offered by a roll-top DCF pack. Saves me having to carry a pack cover. I generally leave my pack in the vestibule at night, so I don’t mind if the outside of the pack is wet.

SAME. I strongly prefer drawstring closures. I don’t trust a roll top to really keep things dry. I picked up an MLD Hell in their new gridstop and I would prefer a drawstring on that pack. My Atom+ is made out of stiffer laminate fabric so that gets a pass because it probably wouldn’t cinch well with a drawstring.

Because roll tops are a fad.  Which is OK if you don’t mind the extra weight .  But packs with drawstring closures, like the KS packs, do not provide the desired protection in severe storms, and like the rolltops, do not provide the desired degree of access to the contents of the pack .  A drop down zip flap with a no. 5 coil zip under the flap, and a good bathtub bottom protecting the lower portion of the pack, have never failed to keep my stuff dry, even in the worst weather.  And with no need for a pack cover.

Roll top dry bags work fine on the water, and do provide protection if the pack and bag get totally submersed; but all that weight is OK only when paddling on the water portion of the trip when I use a hefty dry bag.  For backpacking, light weight, and quick access to gear are my choice.  The rolltop dry bag and water craft get stashed during the backpacking portion of the trip, and are picked up later.

I think partial zip down panels have gotten a bad reputation, probably due to poor design and construction.  However, the coil zips are the waterproof type, albeit they are not really totally waterproof, so do require cover flaps held tightly against the pack with drawstring closures on their perimeters, and must be positioned on the pack so water does not flow under the flaps.

In short, avoiding use of the top of the pack to locate access keeps water out, and having a nice flat shelf on the top with bungee cords to hold items for quick access is also handy.

I had the Kakwa 40 for a while and it was my first roll top.  My first impression was that when umrolled, it’s a long way down to the bottom of the pack.  I understand, that it allows you to over/under stuff your pack, but it seemd odd to me.   For a 40 liter pack, it seems like the rolled section could be reduced by 2-4 inches at least.   Again, first impressions of a roll top.  My 2 cents.

I have an old Boreas that has a drawstring. I guess that’s the only one.

“when umrolled, it’s a long way down to the bottom of the pack.”

Simple solutions to that is to roll the excess outward around the sides… maybe 10 seconds… easy peazy…

I prefer draw string closure.  Use it on my 1 pound myog frame pack.

One Pound Frame Pack – Backpacking Light

https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/one-pound-frame-pack/

So far waterproofnes seems to be the only argument, interesting.
For me it is not, but that might be another topic…
Which actual packs still have drawstring closures?
Gossamer Gear beneath the top lid, right?

I used to use a ULA Ohm 2.0 that was a drawstring. I see they make it with a roll top now and do not offer the drawstring, even in the Custom build your own versions..

I still have and use an old ULA Circuit with drawstring :)
Great pack!

HMG Prism has a draw string. I prefer draw string / brain designs. Still using various White Clouds myself. Will probably cave and get an Arc Haul at some point.

If not waterproof pack, draw string. If waterproof, then roll top.

Roll top can leak water easily if you don’t close it down onto the sides, instead of connecting the two part to themselves at the top. When connected pointing upward on top of the pack, water can still work into and around the folds, which does not happen if the two top snaps are placed downward to the sides of the pack.

As long as one does not mind doing some finishing work on the seam taping, I find Zpacks makes some of the most waterproof packs on the market. I can fill both my Arc Blast and Haul with water and they don’t leak. Took some time getting every tiny bit of seam tape perfect, but it works.

There are a few considerations here:

1) Fabric Stiffness
A drawcord top is cinching the fabric together (e.g. scrunching it) which works well for thin/flexible fabrics like a 30D stuff sack and traditional pack fabrics like 210D nylon, but the composite pack fabrics that have gotten popular over the last decade are stiffer (e.g. X-Pac, Hybrid DCF, EcoPak/Ultra) and don’t cinch that well.  It becomes a high effort to cinch them right closed and it still leaves a sizable hole.

2) Compression
A roll top is an effective way of reducing the volume in a pack. You can roll it down and it stays that way. With a drawcord top you can sorta roll it down after it’s cinched if the pack is quite empty, but there’s nothing to keep it rolled down so it can gradually work it’s way loose. Much more effective compression is one of the best reasons for a roll top.

3) Waterproofness
A roll top has the edge here, but it is a valid point that most of these packs aren’t truly waterproof anyways, and a drawcord top can be pretty good too if you are able to roll it up a bit. A drawcord top isn’t as good here.

4) Ease of use
Perhaps the best advantage of a drawcord top is how quick it is to close it, since you are just cinching one cord and probably buckling another cord over top. In comparison a roll top requires a few folds and then 1 or 2 buckles to close it (depending on if you clip it to itself or the sides of the pack), plus another buckle for the top strap (not needed, but you have to do it up so it’s not dangling). Drawcord packs are better here, but a roll top pack can come pretty close if the rolling part is designed well (e.g. a good stiffener and free of snaps and velcro to line up) and it clips to itself. That’s why with my packs we have a good stiffener and have it buckling to itself (1 buckle) rather than the sides (2 buckles).

To sum it up, with a good design a roll top is only slightly harder to use while offering better compression, better waterproofness, and working well with composite fabrics. However, a drawcord is simpler yet and can be a better option if the pack uses more pliable material and compression/waterproofness aren’t high considerations.

Thanks for your answer Dan, quite thoughtful as always :)
Interesting to hear a designer sharing his considerations.
My perspective on you points:
– Fabric stiffness: Yes, I understand that. But its been solved by manufacturers decades ago (in the time of Cordura 500-100 packs…) with a collar of softer fabric. Or just having the draw cord channel made of a softer fabric is often enough to solve it.
But thats more work and seems so it might really be a big reason for production cost.
Not a real world issue though.
I do favour softer fabrics anyway, so that may have to do with my preference.
I dont know Ultra yet, but the stiffer fabrics usually are “louder” too, what I do not like.
I think 200D Nylon/UHMWPE still is a great fabric for packs.

– compression: I dont get it. for me its much easier to cinch down the cord and then put the top strap over and tighten it to compress the load then having to fight the content of the pack with the roll top. Sometimes something (a jacket f.e.)  up in the pack gets cought by the fabric etc.
I really do not find that easier. And if the pack is loaded up to the top the roll top gets quite useless…

– waterproofness: I agree. Its a matter of other system components, usage and preferences as well. And again, if the pack gets loaded up to the top it doesnt work anymore anyway…

– ease of use: a good roll top design here is hard to find, thats right!
Its interesting that snaps and velcro came up, and a sign of people maybe having problems to use roll tops in the field ;)
I had one with velcro and I really didnt like how stuff got cought on that. Not a big issue though, yes.
Fabric stiffeners on the other side make it harder to have the pack open because the tend to work against the opening and also make it more difficult to roll the excess fabric down on the outside.

I really tried to get used to roll tops, especially on the seek poutside packs  (and I still have some waterproof stuff with roll-tops, no question) but for hiking packs I really prefer draw string tops. I even think there are some objective benefits, but thats almost always hard to argue anyhow ;)

Where are the cottage manufacturers which understand me? :)
I am sure there must be some more out there!

One negative of a drawstring closure is the dangling draw cord when the top is cinched up.  My myog pack, for example, has a 5′ diameter top.  The 5′ dangling drawstring can catch on brush if I don’t tuck it in somewhere.

Here’s a great thread about how to turn a roll top pack into a drawstring, with step-by-step photos from Ken Thompson, and helpful info from Dave Chenault about what to do if your pack fabric is too stiff to close with a drawcord. https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/91428/

For folks wanting to go the other way (drawstring to roll top), here’s another great thread. This one is reversible to toggle between roll top and drawstring. You could run this one in reverse to make a roll top into a drawstring if you’re hesitant to cut the roll top off.  https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/47238/  

One thing a roll top can provide is some resistance to barreling, since by the nature of the roll top you are creating a flat envelope sort of end to the tube that is the pack. That said, I have done and will do drawstring closures on all the packs I have made and will make. I like them for their simplicity and light weight, and I do not count on my pack being water resistant to any significant degree, since I use a Caffin-style mountain poncho as my raingear. And I cut my pack bodies with a “saddle” top to combat barreling.

Switching to roll-tops are much like finding out the existence of brown mustard for deli sandwiches. So Awesome! -and much better with it.

*my dollar bill

-and Happy New Years!

After reading the additional posts, would like to emphasize that in fair weather, any closure will work well enough.  It is only when there is severe rain that there may be some advantage with a roll top.  I know they work if well designed, because dry bags have kept my pack dry even when having to get out of the boat in torrential rapids and steer from behind.

However, for those occasions when rain is severe, the roll tops and other top access packs must be opened at the top; for example to get out the tent or tarp, or other gear that cannot wait until the tent or tarp is pitched.  In that case, even with a roll top, the inside of the pack will be opened to the downpour.  Another reason for using side-entry designs on packs.

Leaning over one’s pack while opening/closing it can help some with the rain/water ingress issue (w/ a roll top, or any top opening pack). And if one uses a poncho or an umbrella, then it is a complete non issue.