Feb 21, 2020 at 2:24 am #3632382carl vSpectator
Anybody has any practical experience with either the Trekkertent Saor DCF or Djedi Dome DCF-eVent? I’m especially interested in durability and condensation in wet climates. For venting the Trekkertent seems to be superior. Further I’m wandering whether the 0.8 DCF on the Trekkertent would be more durable than the Djedi, also considering that the Trekkertent does not use DCF but Silpoly 400 for the floor.
Thanks!Feb 21, 2020 at 3:18 am #3632383Geoff CaplanBPL Member
@geoffcaplanLocale: Lake District, Cumbria
No direct experience of the Saor, but it’s tested for our torrential Scottish conditions so should have decent venting or no-one would buy it…
You’ll find lots of threads on the Saor here on trek-lite.co.ukFeb 23, 2020 at 1:06 pm #3632836carl vSpectator
Thank you for your comment. Agree, the Scottish pedigree indeed is a good sign.Feb 23, 2020 at 11:32 pm #3632949
For the floor, nylon is more durable than the polyester, and 6,6 nylon is more durable yet. The lighter Saor offers a nylon floor, and they could put in on the heavier one, but don’t know the grade of the nylon. For an MYOG tent, there is a ripstop 6,6 nylon available from RBTR, 1.3 oz/sq/yd including coating, but has only been available in white for some time.
A heavier DCF, like .8 oz/sq/yd, would be more durable, but might also be more difficult to fold up and pack. Suspect that is one reason why some companies are using the half ounce DCF.
As for condensation, the Saor offers both netting and solid fabric inner walls, and with good venting, will protect from condensation on the inside of the inner wall. The photos on the trekkertent site are not enough to evaluate the venting. Would be looking for at least 2 top vents that open and close, and some venting possible at ground level without fully opening the door.
The single wall DCF tent gives me some pause, because there have been prior iterations of WPB DCF materials on tents, and jackets as well. DCF is sandwiched between mylar layers that will not transit vapor. So, some other form of dyneema sandwich would have to be used for a WPB material. So far, have not seen any explanation of how this is done, but would like to know. Some of the prior iterations have been taken off the market. Hope this is not just a case of marketing hype by using ‘eVent’ and ‘DCF’ in the same breath. Looked at the website, and not a word about the composition of the fabric. Prior single wall WPB tents have a spotty record of preventing condensation on the inside.
The guy who started Trekkertent used to post his creations on BPL, so t’wer me, I’d lean toward them, plus as noted above, they do custom alterations.Apr 22, 2020 at 8:30 am #3642506
I’m thinking about trying out a Djedi; I think it will work fabulously as a winter tent, but my hope is it will also work for the other three seasons (which my BD Firstlight doesn’t!).
I have a potential 10 day trip in September in the Olympics and am expecting a lot of precipitation, was hoping maybe someone might have some insight on the Djedi in sustained rain.Apr 22, 2020 at 8:53 am #3642510Eric BlancheBPL Member
@eblancheLocale: Northeast US
“The guy who started Trekkertent used to post his creations on BPL, so t’wer me, I’d lean toward them, plus as noted above, they do custom alterations.”
Sam, as an fyi regarding this comment. The same can be said for the owner of Locus Gear, Jotaro Yoshida. He made a thread posting one of his MYOG cuben mids before he started the company. Lets see if I can find it…10 min later: https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/25958/
I have no experience with any of the tents/tarps though from both companies.Apr 22, 2020 at 12:36 pm #3642553David GardnerBPL Member
@gearmakerLocale: Northern California
I would be very interested in anyone’s experience with the Djedi under any conditions. Hope we get some comments here.Apr 22, 2020 at 1:44 pm #3642564
I sent Ryan a pm, hoping he could chime in on the DjediApr 26, 2020 at 10:48 pm #3643332Eric BlumensaadtBPL Member
@danepackerLocale: Mojave Desert
WAIT, WHAT? DCF eVent??Apr 27, 2020 at 11:09 pm #3643556David GardnerBPL Member
@gearmakerLocale: Northern California
Eric – not sure if you’re kidding? Just in case: https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/new-locus-gear-dome-tent/Sep 2, 2020 at 9:36 pm #3674545Alexander LBPL Member
Does anyone have an update? I recently picked up a Djedi and curious on how it performed. I will be trying mine out for the first time in September in New England.Sep 3, 2020 at 6:51 am #3674564
I sent @Ryan Jordan a message a couple of months ago asking how the Djedi performed in sustained rains, never got a reply back.
My buddy has one, but’s only used it in winter conditions thus far. He was hoping ti would be big enough for wife, dog and himself, but thought it was too small for that.Sep 3, 2020 at 8:10 am #3674572Alexander LBPL Member
I think it’s definitely good for two people but adding a big bog could be an issue. I plan on mostly using it solo + dog. It fits my Nemo Tensor Long/Wide with plenty of room to spare. I see that HMG has also started using event DCF. My tent has both the solid and mesh doors so I expect it have very good breath-ability with the sold door part open.Sep 3, 2020 at 8:15 am #3674573
from what he said one person + dog is plenty of room; two people is cozy but definitely doable; two people + dog was a little too cozy :)
his has the both the mesh and solid door, he hasn’t had any condensation issues thus farSep 4, 2020 at 10:20 am #3674700SIMULACRABPL Member
No experience with the DCF-eVent in the tent form. However, I ordered the HMG DCF-eVent Shell back when they were available. Tried on in the house when it arrived and immediately started to feel the plastic bag clammy humidity begin to build inside. My heat seemed to just sit inside with nowhere to go. Didn’t even waste my time. Sent it back. Could be a reason they discontinued it. That and the price. Now, how does that cross over to a tent in variable types of wet conditions? Probably doesn’t. Not really apples to apples, but, maybe.Sep 5, 2020 at 12:42 am #3674790
We don’t know, because info about the technology used for WPB materials is well guarded.
The general principle expressed to me by a tech at Sierra Designs is that some pressure from vapor from the body is needed for the WPB to work. In a tent, there is no comparable pressure. So any WPB tent material that works has got to be something new and different. The Epic used on BD single wall tents did not work well, so they switched to another material that has been reported on BPL to be quite fragile. YMMV. Note the comment above that a single wall BD did not work for all season use.
If there has been an advance in single wall tents since the days of Egyptian cotton, it lies in the use of the mylar on DCF that accumulates less condensation than coated nylons or polyesters. The late founder of Warmlite recognized this, and made nylon single walls with mylar laminated to the inside, but the laminations often failed. Fast forward to Cubic Tech with its process for bonding mylar. But, less condensation does not mean no condensation.
So I think the DCF Saor (not to mention the lighter Phreeranger), with protective inner walls, is clearly superior to the single wall Djedi for staying dry inside the tent. Its doors also protect from rain entering the tent. And it is lighter. Can only think of one advantage of the Djedi; it is a 2 person tent, while the Trekkertents are solos. Both have substantial lead times, plus delays in overseas shipping due to the pandemic.Sep 6, 2020 at 1:57 am #3674901
The general principle expressed to me by a tech at Sierra Designs is that some pressure from vapor from the body is needed for the WPB to work. In a tent, there is no comparable pressure.
The tech’s comments are rather misleading.
One has to distinguish between the total pressure across a fabric and the partial pressure of any gas across the fabric. To be sure, there might be zero total pressure across the tent fly (still air), but there could, at the same time, be a significant partial pressure of something like water vapour.
For instance, if it is dead dry outside and you are cooking dinner inside with steam coming off, there will be a significant partial pressure of water vapour across the tent fabric. This could be quite sufficient to drive water vapour through a WPB membrane.
Equally likely is that while you and your wet clothing (from rain) are raising the water vapour pressure inside the tent, a cold thick fog outside could saturate the RH outside so there is zero partial pressure across the fabric – and you could then get lots of condensation.
Yes, you always need ventilation, but sometimes it just won’t be enough. Tough.
CheersSep 7, 2020 at 12:24 am #3675038
In fairness to SD, would not want you to rely on my recollection after 14 yrs. Here is a copy of the correspondence I was referring to:
Happy venting.Sep 7, 2020 at 5:15 pm #3675159
SD’s reply seems entirely reasonable to me. They talk about a temperature differential being needed, and as we all know that is not correct, but I suspect they were trying to talk in terms the novice could understand. Expecting a novice to understand about humidity differential – well, no.
Go sit in a gear shop for a full day and listen to the sort of Qs that visitors ask. Sad.
CheersSep 15, 2020 at 1:18 am #3676156
Maybe I’m overly optimistic, but believe that there is nothing that with enough thought cannot be explained in plain English. That is probably from my Dad explaining my homework; but even he got a little sketchy when we got to calculus. BTW, a neighbor works in a gear shop on Sundays, and passes the stories on to me. He is the most patient person I know, so perfect for that job.
As far as WPB single wall tents are concerned, there is no need to argue the science, because I’ve seen so many that don’t work, I’d need to try one that does work in order to believe it.Sep 15, 2020 at 2:09 am #3676157
Well, for my part, I have lost all faith in ‘WaterProof Breathable’. It might work in the lab under carefully controlled conditions, but my experience in the field has not been good. Especially once you start working hard, like climbing a mountain.
For a policeman standing still in the rain on point duty, or a TV reported standing in front of a camera (in the rain), GTX works fine. But when you have a pack on your back, there is next to no ‘breathing’ from your back. I have not seen a single membrane that can handle a good sweat. And the membranes, be that Teflon, PU or anything else, are fragile. Take them through the scrub, and little sharp sticks make little holes in them – which then leak. Yeah, that’s first-hand experience (with an expensive GTX jacket).
At the risk of beating an extremely dead horse, the only thing which works is good ventilation. I have ‘tested’ that both ways.
CheersSep 15, 2020 at 4:29 pm #3676221Geoff CaplanBPL Member
@geoffcaplanLocale: Lake District, Cumbria
As far as WPB single wall tents are concerned, there is no need to argue the science, because I’ve seen so many that don’t work, I’d need to try one that does work in order to believe it.
Many years ago, in the early days of Goretex, I had a friend who worked in the company and smuggled me out a length of pre-launch fabric.
I made it into tiny tent / large bivy with hooped poles at each end. It just held two.
I used tunnel vents to ensure it had cross ventilation, and only used it in the cold – for high glacier bivies in the alps, or winter snow camping in Scotland.
It worked a treat – never had any problematic condensation.
It was well ahead of its time and caused a bit of a stir on occasion. I remember one morning on the glacier near the Refuge du Couvercle where we woke up surrounded by a group of guides aspirant hotly debating what on earth this thing was…Sep 15, 2020 at 8:50 pm #3676289
I used tunnel vents to ensure it had cross ventilation,
ChersSep 16, 2020 at 4:38 pm #3676418Michael HarveyBPL Member
I own the Djedi Dome (after falling in love with the aesthetics and Ryan’s comments about its livability in his video about his trip in the Sierra with it). As a former long-distance sailor, I also appreciated the fact that sail-making factored into its evolution, construction, and design.
I have used the tent in the following conditions: Freezing rain/snow; extremely hot and humid in the Appalachians.
For the night of freezing rain, I had the door fully shut so the only “active” ventilation was the tiny peak vent above the door. I was very curious to see how the tent did since much of the exterior became frozen over which would doubtless reduce any breathing across the fabric. In the morning, I had almost no condensation in the tent. There was a very, very thin film of moisture at some parts of the canopy and as the sun warmed the tent, a few drops of water ran downwards along the poles and accumulated in the plastic reinforcement where the pole tips land. We are talking about less than a teaspoon of water. More to the point, absolutely nothing dripped on me from above.
My second use of the tent could not have been more different. I was using it in 94 degree heat with high humidity/dew point next to a river in Shenandoah National Park. My adult daughter was with me in the tent. We were both sleeping under lightweight quilts. There was no precipitation, so we had the door fabric completely rolled up but had the mesh door zipped up all the way because of bugs.
It was hot and humid when we went to bed but that wasn’t the tent’s fault since it had the exact same air in it as the outside air. My daughter’s head was at the “foot” end of the tent so there was no mesh to release her exhalations. I was at the mesh end and so had a great view of the sky and the firefly show (it was on July 4th so we had fireworks after all!) and presumably a lot of my breath exited the tent through the mesh.
Night time temperatures dropped into the low 80s, so everything was still quite warm in the ambient environment. There was absolutely no condensation in the tent at all.
The conditions that I cannot vouch for is what would happen if it was hot, humid, and precipitating so that you had to seal up the door. In those conditions, I imagine the tent would struggle. However, for precisely that scenario, I purchased the “vestibule” that you can set up with the tent using a single trekking pole. That way, you’d be able to leave the fabric door completely unrolled and then zip the mesh closed if there were bugs, or just leave it completely open. In that scenario, I think the tent would continue to remain bone dry.
And although not relevant to the discussion at hand, I will add that the tent physically is a work of art and beautiful in its spare simplicity. It is a true expression of form following function. The fact that you can completely pitch the tent from inside the tent is also a nice attribute.
It is by no means inexpensive so I definitely view it as an indulgence. And its durability is an open question for now although it would be as straightforward to repair tears in the field as with any DCF fabric. (The tent comes with repair fabric for the three different fabrics it uses: the floor, the interior, and the exterior.)Sep 16, 2020 at 10:27 pm #3676463
I hike in the northern Appalachian mountains and mountains surrounding the Continental Divide, mostly in Colorado and sometimes in Wyoming. Always in the shoulder seasons and until now, in August. There are regular torrential rainstorms in both locales. Said ‘until now’, because climate change may heat things up in August, as it did this year with heat and drought.
Given the above, I’ve not hiked in exactly any of the conditions you describe; but condensation has always been a problem, so always have used double wall tents.
But your night in the freezing rain does suggest that the temp was in the 20’s and 30’s F., which are usual for me in the evenings and at night. Note that due to the altitudes in the mountains, the temps are generally cooler than those at, say, Denver CO, or Augusta, ME.
Although I would not be interested in the Djedi because without add-ons it does not fully protect the inside when entering or leaving the tent in heavy rain, you’ve interested me in how well the outer fabric did during a night in the freezing rain. There have been fabrics available that are very light, and specified eVent in the material. However, tried these in garments and found they did not help with condensation, or as is often said, they did not “breathe” well, and my perspiration level is no more than average. Could devise an enclosure to test one of those fabrics in heavy rain, but am not too hopeful that it would be worth the effort.
So don’t see dispensing with protective inner walls any time soon, although for years I’ve wished I could, because single walls would make tent construction so much easier, and possibly lighter than a ~1 oz woven fabric with a ~0.7 oz inner of woven fabric and/or netting.
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