Training with a loaded pack – good or bad?

[Roger Caffin]

I’m a physicist. I have higher standards.
Hilarious! I love it.
But seriously, I don’t think A and B have much in common. They certainly won’t get anywhere arguing.

My wife also plays the guitar. I think, on absolutely no measurement grounds whatsoever, that her guitar sounds ‘mellow’, but I refuse to even try to define that.

Cheers

[Arthur]

Jscott, I appreciate the humor!  I think the guitar is analogous to golf clubs.  In golf clubs, there are all kinds of measurements, statistics, outrageous claims, etc.  But as my dad says, “its not the club, it’s the guy holding on to the end of the club”.  Same might be said of backpacks, shoes, etc.

[jscott]

Arthur, that’s absolutely true. My teacher had a career performing. He carries a pretty crappy guitar around to his lessons and makes it sound better than more expensive instruments. He always says the same thing: it’s mostly down to the guitarist.

[bjc]

A good look at the issues of concrete vs asphalt with reference to a research  paper on how different surfaces effect running mechanics. I would agree with Roger that other variables besides hardness are at play here. I also suspect that people who run a great deal may be more sensitive to differences in surfaces(something referred to as just noticeable difference). Experienced guitarists are also likely to be more sensitive to string as well as tuning differences than less accomplished players. This can be true in any field. Regardless, as  a 50+ year runner, I’ll choose asphalt!😊
https://www.slowtwitch.com/Training/Running/Concrete_or_Asphalt__4793.html

[Roger Caffin]

the hardness difference between concrete and asphalt is insignificant when running in shoes, because the cushioning afforded by shoes far exceeds any cushioning provided by those surfaces.
from slowtwitch, above

Just so.

Cheers

[jscott]

Well, this is from Runners World..but what do they know?

https://www.runnersworld.com/uk/health/injury/a760152/top-10-running-surfaces/

“Concrete is primarily made up of cement (crushed rock), and it’s what most pavements and five per cent of roads are constructed from. It delivers the most shock of any surface to a runner’s legs.

Pros: Concrete surfaces tend to be easily accessible and very flat, and if you stick to pavements, you can avoid traffic.

Cons: The combination of a hard surface (reckoned to be 10 times as hard as asphalt), kerbs, and the need to sidestep pedestrians, can lead to injury.

Conclusion: City dwellers probably have little choice but to do a large proportion of their running on concrete. If you get the slightest opportunity, though, look for softer surfaces.

Rating: 2.5/10”

Concrete is the worst of 10 surfaces, according to them. Asphalt rates higher–look at the link.

Just google ‘concrete vs. asphalt’. See what you find.

[W I S N E R !]

I’ve run many city marathons, who knows how many training miles. Hard to say whether concrete vs. asphalt is worse…because asphalt is typically heavily cambered and people run with traffic on the right. A height difference and varying tilt between the left/right footstrike….mile after mile…this can be hell. I’ve had serious hip issues because of it (and it’s largely why I swore off road running pretty early).

For walking, I can’t imagine either surface matters; I’d definitely avoid the camber for long miles though.

 

[bjc]

Since my right leg is slightly shorter than my left, as long as the camber wasn’t  too big, it actually helped me in my training. These days with more hiking and less running not much of an issue. The big thing is that we all keep moving!

[jscott]

bjc. my left leg is slightly shorter than my right, so I always look for the opposite camber as you. We’ve probably passed each other on the wrong side of the street for years.

I realize that I may be too argumentative when I’m ready to go to the mat over which is harder, asphalt or concrete…

[Ken Larson]

https://backpackinglight.com/podcast-014-training-for-backpacking/

[Murali C]

The human body is amazing and will adapt to whatever you throw at it. Case in point – 83 year old hiker who finished the AT this year.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/09/us/nimblewill-nomad-appalachian-trail-hiker.html

I had read this book a few months back – “Exercised – Why something we never Evolved to do is Healthy and Rewarding” by Daniel Lieberman. Good read. He says the following about how bodies adapt with respect to overuse injuries, repetitive motion injuries etc:

“But, clearly, the body can adapt. In 2015, I observed a demonstration of this principle when I followed eight amateur runners who ran 3,080 miles across the United States to raise money to combat childhood obesity. For six months, the runners, who ranged from their twenties to their seventies, ran about a marathon a day with only one day of rest per week. In addition to measuring their biomechanics, I asked these courageous souls to keep a daily log of their injuries. For the first few weeks they reported a typical list of afflictions from knee pain to blisters. After a month, however, their reported injuries slowed to a trickle as their bodies adapted. Of the fifty total injuries reported by all eight runners, three-quarters were in the first month and none were in the final month.”

“Beyond how much we run, another potential way to reduce our chances of injury is how we run. If repetitive stress injuries arise from innumerable recurrent, forceful movements, it stands to reason that some ways to run must be less stress inducing than others. Running lightly and gently, however, is easier said than done, and in my experience many runners are unaware of their form. We just lace on a pair of comfortable shoes and go. Many coaches also pay little attention to running form. This individualistic approach is epitomized by the hypothesis that each of us develops a preferred and most efficient running style involving our stride rate, how much we lean, how our foot strikes the ground, and how much we flex our hips, knees, and ankles. As long as we stick to this form, we are less likely to get injured.49 An anthropological approach combined with what we know about running biomechanics suggests a different perspective.50 When I ask runners from different cultures if there is a best way to run, they invariably tell me they consider running a learned skill. As the anthropologist Joseph Henrich has shown, humans in every culture master critical skills by imitating people who are good at them.51 Just as it makes sense to hit tennis balls like Roger Federer, doesn’t it make sense to run like Eliud Kipchoge or other great runners? Tarahumara runners tell me they learn to run properly by following champions of the ball-game races. Kenyan runners do the same, often honing their skills in groups, which I have sometimes joined outside the city of Eldoret. Soon after the sun rises, about ten to twenty runners meet near a local church. One person always takes the lead as we start jogging slowly away from town, and as we follow him, I think, “Okay, I can do this!” But gradually we speed up until, gasping for breath, I have to drop out as the other runners laugh and wish me luck. Apart from drawing motivation from each other, participants in these group runs learn running form. Watch ten Americans training and you’ll generally see ten different running styles, but a group of Kenyans often looks more like a flock of birds with the leader not just setting the pace but also modeling how to run so that the runners appear to move in unison, adopting the same cadence, arm carriage, and graceful kick.”

 

[Steve H]

As an old guy (61) with a shattered femur at 13, then torn ACL & meniscus… and a student of progressive training, what works for me is strength training your posterior chain (often neglected) alternated with hiking/walking.  Train hard (load/intensity) but be sure to allow ample recovery.  Hiking in the neighborhood with a 20  lb bag of charcoal is part of my training. But again, work hard & allow recovery time.  Squats, deadlifts, step ups & rest recovery.

[DWR D]

1) The best training for a particular activity is to do that activity. Have you noticed that you feel the strongest for backpacking after… er… a backpacking trip? If you are training for a mountain backpack with lots of elevation gain and loss… train by hiking up and down mountains… or at least steep hills. Start with a low pack weight and work your way up.

2) stay away from asphalt and concrete… very hard on the joints… especially running which multiplies the impact on joints exponentially…

3) as far as ‘using up’ some finite amount of hiking or pounding goes, that is an amount that is not known and likely can not be known. I have been concerned about that for several decades longer than you, but still going strong. I think the only thing you can do is to practice good join health… avoid concrete and asphalt… avoid running if it makes your joints hurt… especially running on concrete and asphalt and especially down hills… wear shoes with high cush, like the Altra Olympus or some of the Hokas… work up to long, pounding descents… give your body time to recover… even take zero days now and then… lighten your load as lighter loads put less stress on joints… use poles for easing the impact down rocky steps

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