Trail Shoes with Crampons?

[Nicholas R]

Good afternoon.  I am new to Backpacking Light.  I have done a fair amount of wilderness hiking, and am planning to cross the Hardangervidda plateau (in Norway) next month.  There will likely be some fairly long stretches with snow, some of them potentially exposed to a dangerous fall, so I have a Petzl Ride ultralight ice axe (290 g roughly) and a pair of Petzl Leopard crampons.

In addition to hiking, I also trail run, on my own, and not at a competitive level.  But I was struck by the recommendation, repeated many times on this site, that it is beneficial to wear trail shoes for ultralight hiking.  I have fitted my Leopard crampons on my trail shoes (Sportiva Ultra Raptors), and they are sufficiently snug and stable.  The Hardangervidda is not likely to have seriously steep terrain except for very short sections.  Wearing trail running shoes in high alpine terrain strikes me as really stupid and dangerous.

I am curious if any of you have experience putting crampons on your trail shoes, and how this worked for you.  I am also curious if, when wearing trail running shoes, you simply accept to walk with wet feet, fording streams without changing footgear, or whether you have any solutions that manage to keep your feet dry.  My “normal” approach to this problem, up to now, is a pair of hiking boots, gaiters, and a pair of water shoes, so at each significant ford I switch footgear and cross, thus keeping my feet dry.  Switching to trail running shoes and accepting wet feet would save 800 g off my feet and around 900 g (water shoes + gaiters) off my pack weight.

Your opinions and advice are most welcome!

Nicholas

[Lester Moore]

As long as the crampons are 100% strap on, they should physically work so long as the fit is good. The more important consideration is to become accustomed to your crampons, shoes and ice ax though practice before your trip. If after multiple practice sessions on snow you are still uncomfortable with your gear, then change to heavier shoes/books.

Heavier shoes make a world of difference on steep snow, with or without crampons. If you will be on steep snow for large portions of your trip, then heavier shoes may be best, especially if you have little experience on snow or wearing light trail runners.

Wearing trail running shoes in high alpine terrain strikes me as really stupid and dangerous.

This is certainly true if you are unaccustomed and unpracticed at doing so – but it’s perfectly safe if you know your gear and your skill limits and stay within them. One could also say it’s dangerous to use an ice axe on snow unless you’re accustomed and practiced at using it. The key point is to be practiced and accustomed to using whatever gear you have. That’s one of the keys to successful and safe ultralight backpacking. For example, it’s much less risky for an experienced back-country traveler to wear running shoes on a steep snow climb than for an inexperienced person to wear heavy boots on a moderate snow slope IMHO.

[Nicholas R]

Thank you for your reply and advice, Lester.  About my statement, I agree with you that experience and mastering the relevant techniques are crucial.  But some tasks are equipment-dependent.  Try kicking steps into hard snow with trail-running shoes.  Or traversing a steep slope depending on the (rigid) edge of the shoe the way you can do with mountaineering boots.

I will indeed practice with the trail shoes and crampons and see if I can reach a sufficient comfort level to use them on my hike.

[Peter Bakwin]

I have used crampons with trail runners frequently on moderately steep snow. Usually Kahtoola KTS, which lack front points but work well. You’re not going to climb vert ice in these, but 40-50 degrees snow is fine. Anyway, of course try it out & see if it works for you. As far as stream crossings & wet feet, yes, I normally just accept that they will be wet for a while. If you’re crossing long stretches of wet snow it could be a problem because of the cold. I have certainly frozen my feet doing that – not fun. Some neoprene socks can help.

 

I really do not like boots, but there are a few situations where they are needed, like long periods of cold conditions.

[Ryan Jordan]

Crampons: lighter crampons work better with lighter shoes. For example, the marriage of microspikes with trail running shoes is a match made in heaven – for low angle terrain.

As terrain gets steeper, saving weight on shoes and crampons starts to go south. I wouldn’t be too comfortable on a 50 degree slope with trail running shoes, because when your cramponing french style (pied a plat – flat-footed), the shoe’s upper (especially if it’s wet) isn’t always supportive enough to keep your foot secure (this is shoe dependent).

Wet feet: really only an issue in cold conditions (subfreezing), but by then I’m in heavy boot socks and maybe even a Gore-Tex sock in order to keep feet warm.

[Nicholas R]

Ryan, thank you for your comments, and Peter also.  I would not use trail-running shoes with crampons on a steep snow slope.  There should not be such steep slopes in Hardangervidda.  The crampons I have are Petzl Leopard lightweight aluminum crampons.  I find that micro spikes are too small to use in snow as the snow can bunch up and cover the spikes.  I appreciate all of the answers to my query and will post my experiences after my trip!

[Ralph Burgess]

Have you used the Petzl Leopard crampons?   I have a pair, and I don’t like them at all.  I took them to save weight when a had to cross one modest ~30deg snow slope, and I couldn’t get them to stay securely in position laterally with any kind of sideways pressure.

I think using trail runners is fine this time of year, but if you’re going anywhere you actually need crampons, I wouldn’t skimp on the crampons to save weight.  I’d second the Kahtoola KTS hiking crampons that Peter mentioned.   The attachment system is secure on either shoes or boots.   For hiking purposes (not technical climbing on steep ice) the bent-down front points are a feature, not a bug – safer for walking.

[Anonymous]

In colder and wet conditions,  I’ve combined a thin wool (either merino or alpaca)-synthetic blend, a goretex sock, and a thicker (medium thickness) polypropylene outer sock to good effect. You can wring/squeeze out the PP sock and it dries fast.  Also, the material is less thermally conductive than other common materials.

If I’m not wearing crampons and won’t need them, I actually prefer a hiking sandal with the above 3 part sock system. Sound crazy?  Maybe, but much less material to wait for to dry.  Sometimes to make up for a little extra warmth, I’ll throw on a liner PP sock either over the thin wool-synthetic sock that is directly on the skin, or over the goretex sock and below the medium thickness outer PP sock.

I always have extra and separate sleeping socks.

[Nicholas R]

I have used the Petzl Leopards a few times but never with trail running shoes and never on any steep slopes (if I go somewhere with ice or steep snow I would wear rigid mountaineering boots and traditional alpine crampons).  I am going to test the Leopards a few times, given what several of you have said.  I also have micro-spikes I could use.  The problem is that Kahtoola KTS crampons do not seem to be imported into France.  I could potentially order a pair from the US and have it shipped priority, but on Amazon US only the S/M size is available and it is too small for my size 10 foot.

[Michael]

The Grivel G1 looks similar to the KTS and is easier available in Europe.

No experience though, so do some research first.

[Ralph Burgess]

If you are determined to get the Kahtoolas and you need them soon, I tried putting a Paris postcode into the store on the Kahtoola site itself, and it came up with $80 shipping in 2-3 days.    If that’s correct, that’s a good shipping rate for an express ~1.5lb package by air.

Or if you have a friend in the U.S., you can get them at backcountry.com 20% off with free 2-day shipping anywhere in the U.S., and have them sent on.   USPS have cheaper and slower shipping options.

But although I’d recommend the Kahtoolas as the ideal crampons for your purpose, I’m not suggesting that they are the only crampons that will work by any means – there are plenty of other crampons that will fit securely on Ultra Raptors.    It’s just the cord attachment system of the Petzl Leopard that I think is dubious.   If you anticipate only the kind of terrain where minimal microspikes would be okay, then the Leopards will be fine, they’re better than microspikes.   But it sounds like you think proper crampons are required, and for that I’m not convinced that Leopards are up to the job – when the consequences of failure are a slide down an icy slope, for myself I decided that they fell into the category of “stupid light”.

 

[Paul S]

I have your setup: Ride ice axe and Leopard crampons. I’m a trail runner also. I’ve used them w/ Hoka Mafate Speeds (I modified them for fat shoes – longer cordage) and Salomon Ultras. Also, with a more mountaineering “Boot:” Salomon’s S-lab XA Alpine. Regarding use w/ the trail runners: getting them to really be secure on the shoe because of the flexible sole is difficult. I’ve had mixed results with them: I’ve done lots of passes in the Sierra w/ then including some that might be considered sketchy or a bit steep: Shepherd Pass, Frozen Lake Pass, etc. and Mt Ritter, and at least 1 time when I turned back because I didn’t feel secure (Mt Sill’s NW couloir, class 4). I would recommend getting the “Antisnow” plates for them if you think you will encounter wet/sticky stuff.

It will really depend on your skills, confidence, snow conditions and the steepness. I would suggest testing them out more than once somewhere closer to home — particularly to get the fit right and gain confidence. The huge plus for trail runners is that your feet will be much much happier covering miles. The downside is that they are not mountaineering boots!

 

Hope that helps.

[Diane “Piper” Soini]

In California, the hiking season in the High Sierra gives you very warm days (hot, even) with snow underfoot at high elevation sometimes with steep slopes. Trail running shoes with something like Kathoola KTS crampons is ideal. Your feet are going to get wet from the softening snow, from all the water everywhere on the trail and from the creek crossings anyway. It’s not very practical to try to keep your feet from coming in contact with water (although a lot of people still try) and it’s not really necessary since the weather is usually very nice. A great many people on this site when they talk about wearing trail running shoes and crampons for hiking in the snow are not hiking in the arctic in winter or ice climbing or anything like that. They’re hiking in the spring and summer where snow is lingering and the weather is otherwise generally nice.

[Anonymous]

Speaking for self, I prefer to hike from mid fall through winter to early spring, and will go out from our coldest -5*F temps to the more common 20’s to high 30’s *F but often wet, slushy, sleety, etc. Was speaking from that experience and perspective. (And yes, I’ve tried hiking sandals in those conditions. Course, not so good for crampons, so perhaps somewhat moot advice. Was giving more sock advice. I really like that system).

[Nicholas R]

I want to thank everyone for their very valuable advice.  Here is what I have done:

1.  I tested the Petzl Leopard FL crampons.  After fitting them carefully I found no issue with lateral stability on my trail running shoes (Sportiva Ultra-Raptors).  However, for front-pointing with a trail-running shoe they are definitely NOT well-suited.  This is not due to the crampon per se but to the complete lack of rigidity of the shoe which makes maintaining weight on the front of the crampon extremely strenuous.
2. Following your advice, I ordered and received a pair of Kahtoola KTS, having to pay the $80 shipping to France plus almost $80 customs duty.  The steel leaf between the front and back of the crampon adds a good deal of rigidity and they are thus definitely superior to the Petzl’s and worth the extra weight.

All of the above said, I definitely do not see myself going on any really steep snow slope with either of these crampons and trail shoes.  I would be willing to go on steep snow slopes with the Kahtoola KTS and a semi-rigid boot.

Happy hiking!

[Author]

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