Sun and Sun-Screen Info

[Daryl and Daryl]

https://www.outsideonline.com/2380751/sunscreen-sun-exposure-skin-cancer-science?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=WYM-01102019&utm_content=WYM-01102019+CID_c215471be1e87b2c2451412d501627fd&utm_source=campaignmonitor%20outsidemagazine&utm_term=How%20did%20we%20get%20it%20so%20wrong

[Ken Thompson]

Like most things, avoid excess.

Too much of a good thing applies. Emphasis on good thing.

[Ralph Burgess]

It’s compelling evidence.   The Swedish study is here:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/joim.12496

It’s a huge study – almost 30,000 women over 20 years – and the effect is just astonishingly large.

The end of the Outside article is terrible though.   After explaining (surpisingly well for a journalist) that the reason we got fooled is because it’s not about Vitamin D, why is the author pushing an app to monitor how much sunlight we need to get adequate Vitamin D?    It’s like he didn’t read his own article.

[Daryl and Daryl]

Ralph,

I agree.

[Rex Sanders]

Before you throw away your sunscreen, hats, and long-sleeved shirts (quoting from the journal article):

We acknowledge several major limitations of this study.

First, it is not possible to differentiate between active sun exposure habits and a healthy lifestyle,

and secondly, the results are of an observational nature; therefore, a causal link cannot be proven.

In other words if people who live a healthy lifestyle also get more sunshine – sunshine might not be why they live longer.

And studies like this need to pass a much higher bar, or be supported by better studies, before you can completely trust the conclusions.

But the authors also said (as has been known for a while):

Further, because there is no robust evidence to show that it is safe in terms of [malignant melanoma] to be exposed to the sun for longer after applying sunblocker, we question the general interpretation of the guideline that ‘as long as you use sunblock you may stay out in the sun for a long time’.

Repeat after me: Sunblocks (sunscreens) that don’t block UVA won’t stop skin cancer.

And until recently, that was almost all sunblocks.

My takeaways:

• Too little sunlight is bad for you, just like too much. How bad, and how much – not so certain.
• Comparing sunscreen use  to smoking is going too far. How far, I’m not sure.
• We’ve definitely been sold a bill of goods about sunblock – for both the UVA / UVB problem and the side effects on humans & the environment.

I wear a long-sleeve shirt plus hat, and sometimes sunblock, only when I’m spending several hours in a row outdoors. Covering up daily, when I spend most of the day indoors, is crazy.

HYOH.

— Rex

[Edward John M]

OK as far as it goes but I come from the Melanoma capital of the world and Northern Hemisphere studies and conclusions do not necessarily apply here unmodified.

 

 

[Graham F]

From Oz, for your interest, as we were was quoted in the article,

If you look at the middle of the page right you can see that UV of 1-2 no sunscreen is advised unless…            http://www.bom.gov.au/uv/  -Official Australian Government Meteorological  site.

Also the place I was walking this morning for 12 kms and about three hours-

https://uv.willyweather.com.au/vic/barwon/addiscot-beach.html   I walked from 6.30 to 9.30 used no sunscreen as I knew I would be back at my car by 9.30.  I follow this carefully, especially in Summer and Spring. You will see I was into the higher zone for half an hour.

Like Rex out for multiple hours above UV 2-3 and I am fully covered with clothes and SS on any exposed skin.

Australia has (officially) been advising for some years along these lines.

https://www.dermcoll.edu.au/atoz/sun-protection-sunscreens/

Seemed relevant?

[Edward John M]

Pertinent and relevant. But most people here in OZ do seem to get most of their weekday sun during the lunchtime break when the UV levels are often in the extreme range. And I think the number range is not numerical but logarithmic. I assume for city workers everywhere things are similar

[Diane “Piper” Soini]

I came to the conclusion that sunblock doesn’t really help you (except to prevent sunburns which are painful and avoiding pain is definitely good) by thinking about the recommendation people always have to put sunblock on to protect your tattoos. Sunblock works not because it’s a barrier to the sun but because there’s a chemical reaction in your skin. Tattoos are ink and they won’t have any chemical reaction to the sunblock so they won’t be protected by the sunblock! In fact, if my own tattoos are anything like other people’s tattoos, when they’re in the sun, I can feel them physically heating up and becoming hotter than the rest of my skin! So if you want to protect tattoos from the sun, cover them with clothing. (And if you don’t want the discomfort of unnaturally hot skin, don’t get tattoos on parts of the body that will get lengthy direct sun on them when you’re just sitting around outside. I have to lay a bandana over my shin to keep my shin from heating up.)

And my personal experience as a fair-skinned woman of a “certain” age, when I was a child there wasn’t sunblock. We all got sunburns and we spent our summers getting very, very tan. With our Swedish/Finnish/Norweigian heritage we were as dark as a lot of Latinx people. We did it on purpose and we did it because we were children in California whose mothers threw us out of the house and locked the doors during the day because “go out and play!” was what mothers told their children to do. Fast forward all these years and my skin is a mess. It is blotchy and it is prone to pre-cancerous lesions which I periodically have removed. I have no idea whether sunblock might have prevented this. I imagine we will find out when the children of the 90s who did have sunblock and played in the sun become middle-aged.

[AK Granola]

Like Diane, I too was locked out of the house most of the day in summer, back in Minnesota. Lunch came out on the patio, and a three o’clock snack, but otherwise we played all day. Water from the garden hose if needed. Lots of sunburns, always tan. Then tanning to be beautiful as a teen. Now middle aged, and watching the spots appear! So far so good, but I’m glad I put sunblock on my kids. And if I don’t have on clothing coverage, I definitely have on sunblock. No regrets though, despite the bad skin now. Climbing trees, catching snakes and frogs and crickets, the freedom of running all over the neighborhood and no one tracking me, I wouldn’t trade all that for an iPhone, or perfect skin in my fifties.

[jscott]

Sunlight is far more intense at altitude than at sea level. I had a cancerous melanoma sliced out of my face. It was caused by sun exposure. That was unpleasant. Dying from melanoma would be even worse. I strongly advise using some form of protection at altitude or if you spend time on the water or snow. And no, a baseball cap isn’t sufficient.

To be honest, I find articles like this exasperating simply because people who want an excuse not to use sufficient sun protection start broadcasting how it’s not necessary.

[Graham F]

G’day Jeffrey, no Australian walker I know uses a baseball cap.

Foolish things for here in Australia as Edward correctly (fact) referred to, as the melanoma capital of the world. A sad and accurate distinction. You won’t find many Australians over about 30 that haven’t had something removed, me I’ve had half a dozen. We went full on into protective mode when it was established that the ozone layer’s level of greatest depletion was over Australia and NZ. (See my clip below).

I felt the article wasn’t necessarily saying you shouldn’t use sunscreen, just that you can be selective based on  the known facts, maybe I misunderstood. I linked above to those facts.

The science clearly states proper use of broad spectrum sunscreen and proves ( here in Australia where the statistics for melanoma leveled when the proper use of sunscreens were introduced with governmental educative initiatives thirty eight years ago) their use works.

We have been educating about proper sunscreen practise for ages here and if you scan the Australian Dermatological Society page above you will see the current proper usage recommendation. The Bureau of Meteorology (Federal Government) website is informed by them.

In Oz it is called sunscreen which is more apt, sun block -US, I reckon is misleading and makes people think you can negate all the effects of the sun. There have serious concerns about vitamin D deficiency here in recent years as people wrongly assumed you had to wear Sunscreen at ALL times. The correct guidelines are above.Get some sun at the safe UV level, at some times-the rest of the time the catchphrase every Australian knows is SLIP/SLOP/SLAP. This is taught in Primary school here. No hat no play outdoors in Summer at primary school. This policy is strictly enforced in schools here in the state of Victoria where I reside.

The science is clear, that children’s skin is the most vulnerable to formation of latter life Melanoma.

Here is Sid the Seagull in a government advertisement from 1980 when we really realised we were in the shit if we didn’t quick smart.

It is now extended to slip,slop,slap, seek (shelter at the dangerous UV time of day) and slide (on some sunnies)-see Pterygium below.

Pterygium  are on the rise here from excessive sun exposure, from outdoor workers of all kinds and if you live away from the mountains it is not in fact correct that you will have lesser problems. Surfers for example are the highest sufferers (as related to me by my Opthalmologist ) of Pterygiua from reflective glare.

I have Pterygiua on both eyes. Proper sunglasses when surfing would have stopped them forming. The science is clear.

 

[jscott]

+1 Graham.

thanks for that informative post.

[Jerry Adams]

I just read that article, interesting

I wear long sleeves, pants, wide brimmed hat.  Will continue to do so.

In the winter I try to get as much sun as possible.  In the summer I’ll do 30 minutes a day before covering up.

Main point of the article is to not slather up all the time because it inhibits vitamin D (and other chemicals).  And doesn’t prevent disease.  Based on 2 new studies.  There have been studies previous that concluded the same.  Because it’s observational, maybe people that don’t get cancer just happen to stay in the sun more just because they like it.  Until a study that shows contrary, I think it’s best to get moderate sun exposure without sunscreen.  Taking vitamin D pills may not do everything that actual sun exposure does.  Okay, maybe not as bad as margarine, maybe the point is just that professionals used to recommend margarine, now they don’t, same thing could happen with sunscreens.

Another point is don’t slather up on sunscreen and assume it provides protection, so spend long periods in the sun.  Sunscreen prevents sunburn but not necessarily skin cancer.  If you’re going to spend long periods in the sun you have to cover up.

I don’t think they’re giving an excuse for not using sunscreen, just providing data about what it does and doesn’t do.

[Edward John M]

Pterygiua?

Is that similar to or the same as Labrador Keratosis?

Timely post as I get my biopsy results tomorrow after the removal of another couple of small tumours. Strangely tho it is impossible to get Cat 4 sunglasses easily here in Australia and it is these that are really needed for people who sail, ski, surf or work outdoors in summer. Government worried about people driving in them I suppose although I have never had a problem driving in mine in the middle of summer.

[John S.]

http://www.pathologyoutlines.com/topic/eyepterygium.html

[Daryl and Daryl]

Boy this is a complicated subject and the research is sometimes confusing and complicated.

My dermatologist recommends getting vitamin D from food and supplements because some/many? people don’t generate vitamin D when exposed to the sun.

[John S.]

Even more scary than melanoma is Merkel Cell carcinoma….rare though.

[Graham F]

Hey Edward  this is pretty good at explaining

https://visioneyeinstitute.com.au/services/pterygium/

I have them as  I said on both eyes. On a hot day like today (for you in the US it is quite warm in Victoria, it is 34 Celcius as I type) in a northerly (hot) wind if I am outdoors I lose the whites of my eyes-they go red. Both mine are onto the cornea and the growths can be seen easily by the naked eye if I turn in profile.

Just for fun I also have surfers ear-

“Medically known as “exostosis of the external auditory canal, is caused by repeated exposure to cold water and wind. Cooling of the earcanal stimulates bone growth that narrows the canal and blocks the eardrum.”

My hearing is not too great.

 

[Edward John M]

Different then as Labrador Keratosis is an actual cancer, of the lower part of the eyeball and caused by reflected light at an acute angle from memory. I heard of it when I was living and working in The Alice in the middle 70’s, more than a few cases at the local hospital

[Chris K]

Like most things, moderation is probably best.

And “probably” is the key word, since the medical community generally speaks in probabilities when it comes to exposures, outcomes, etc. Someday, when general AI rules our world, we will be told — via smart watch, phone, implant, or whatever, based on our environment, skin type, age — exactly how much sun we can tolerate before we’re in the danger zone, or at least in a higher risk insurance pool.

Maybe we adapt Michael Pollan’s adage about food: “Get sun, not too much, mostly below Level 5 on the US EPA UV Index Scale.”

[Graham F]

I think respectfully Chris you are incorrect. The outcomes for appropriate UV management are clear. The health outcomes in Australia over decades support this. UV levels of 5 are perilous for prolonged exposure. Perhaps you are referring to some being affected worse than others? That is scientifically explained by high incidence among people of Celtic origin. The Brits that emigrated to Australia for example. Cheers.

[Jerry Adams]

get about 15 or 30 minutes of sun exposure per day

beyond that you’ll risk cancer and aging looking skin

if the sun is at it’s worst, higher in the sky, in summer, it may not be that much worse for cancer.  UVA is absorbed by the atmosphere.  When the sun is lower in the sky more UVA will be absorbed so there’s less risk of sunburn.  UVB not so much.  That’s what causes skin cancer and aging skin.

[Chris K]

Graham – yes, some more than others. As a redhead I’m squarely in the category you describe, which we know is at high risk thanks to the research (and personally thanks to a UV-induced surgery.) My experience after going down the road of full sun protection at all times is that, you know what, a little sun is probably OK. The article’s conclusion, or at least the scientists quoted toward the end, seem to say this. You have to know when it is too much (well before getting burned), but that can vary by the person.

Forgive my joke about the scale, I just picked 5 ’cause it’s in the middle numerically. I should have said 3, like Australia recommended in the article! But as an aside… if level 5 is perilous for prolonged periods (how long?), then you could argue the UV Index is somewhat problematic to the casual viewer. On a scale of 1-11+, values 3-5 are labeled “moderate.” This leaves 2 values less than moderate, and 6+ values more than moderate. Visually this makes a 3-5 on the scale look relatively less dangerous.

[Edward John M]

It’s a bit of a joke really when even the bottom third of the scale is only considered safe if wearing appropriate protective clothing.

Out of interest; because I was out in it today; I just checked the noon index for SE Australia, it was 13+. Big hat, long sleeved shirt [ US desert surplus because of the high UV protection of 50+] and sunglasses, it was only 22C today quite cold for the time and place. I knew the sun was bright but I had no idea how bright until I  checked

On a better note my biopsies came back clear; not cancer merely big Solar Keratoses.

It takes 40 years or more for the damage to become evident and it is now showing itself

[Author]

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