Sub 6 oz down jackets?

The MH Ghost Wisperer is speced as having 2.78 oz of 850 fill which should provide an Iclo of 2.11. I lab tested this garment and it provided an Iclo of .99.

The MB EX Light is speced as having 1.8 oz of 900 fill which should provide an Iclo of 1.62. I lab tested this garment and it provided an Iclo of 1.28.

Hi Richard,

Can you explain “Iclo”?  Does your data suggest that the MB EXlight is a more efficient garment than the MH Ghost Whisperer?  The numerous baffles on the Whisperer don’t seem to help with warmth…

David, I think this post will answer some of your questions.

Try to get a jacket with DWR down treatment like DownTek or DriDown. You’ll be glad you did. LL Bean has some as does Eddie Bauer’s First Ascent line.

Try emailing Borah gear.  They may be able to make what you need even though it’s not on his website.

I have the old exlite down.  I am warm doing camp chores at freezing wearing a long sleeve lightweight base layer, base bottoms, the ex light and an OR helium, toque and Mitts.  But I am generally a warm person.

With such a light jacket, there’s barely enough down to keep the baffles lofted.  And the ratio of down to fabric is lower.

Maybe a down vest is better.  Same total weight, but a little less fabric and more down.

I use base layer + vest + jacket down to 20 F.

i agree with Jerry that if you wan to go so light, a vest makes better sense.

I really don’t understand carrying a super light down garment that has to be supplemented by other clothes. Why not carry a warmer/few ounces heavier down jacket and leave asupplemental layer behind? I love carrying my very puffy hooded down anorak on cold mornings and after the sun’s gone down. Plus, it makes the best pillow ever!

A down jacket requires at least 2-3 oz of fabric (liner and shell). So add zipper, elastic cuffs, maybe a simple pocket, and a 5 oz limit doesn’t leave a lot of room for down. I think vest (maybe Borah Gear) with overfill may be your warmest option for 5 oz, or custom Goose Feet. Personally, I went the Goose Feet Gear route – just received a down pullover with no hood, weighs 7 oz with 4oz of 950 FP down. Should be great for down to freezing temps.

Agree with Jerry and Jeffrey…carrying such a light (upper body) down garment didn’t make sense for me.  Lower body is a different subject where the MB pants with 1.5 oz of fill are awesome.  I’ve had a down jacket and a down parka that were selected primarily for their weight.  I used them, and loved them, but with experience decided that something more substantial allowed me to be warmer at less total system weight and complexity.

Last year I splurged on the MB Plasma 1000  parka…paying the bill hurt, but my God what a beautiful thing it is.  At 9.15 oz in size XL it is toasty to below freezing with nothing but t-shirt underneath.  Add normal base layers and you are easily comfortable down to single digits.  It is both warmer and lighter than the MB UL Parka it replaced.  Highly recommended.

Correction to the above: Mountain Hardware Ghost Whisperer has 75 g (2.65 oz) of 800 fill down in the hoodless version:
https://www.mountainhardwear.com/mens-ghost-whisperer-down-jacket-1560901.html?cgid=mens-jackets-insulated&dwvar_1560901_variationColor=438#start=0

^^^

$400 +/-

A worthwhile investment for 120 days on the trail.  Otherwise –

I guess I’ll just have to be happy with my old  8 ounce Montbel Alpine parka.

“The MB EX Light is speced as having 1.8 oz of 900 fill which should provide an Iclo of 1.62. I lab tested this garment and it provided an Iclo of 1.28.”

@Richard295:  Just out of curiosity, do you have an opinion of the WM Flight Vest?  It weighs ~ 6 oz in a size medium.  WM is legendary for the quality and warmth of its garments.

You guys have me thinking now about a down vest.  Agreed–I don’t get much loft with my Ghost Whisperer, although it does the job for summer backpacking in the Rockies.  Jerry, what kind baselayer / jacket are you using?  Do your arms get cold without insulation?

I am using an ultralight UnderArmour Base 1.0 longsleeve polyester base layer–it weighs 3.7 oz in a size medium (the lightest I could find at the time).  For my shell, I’m using a Berghaus Hyper jacket that weighs 3.07 oz  in a size large.  You can already see that I’m pushing the limits of these pieces and doing some serious gram counting.

I should mention that all of these pieces are part of my sleep system as well.  I typically wear my down jacket to bed, especially on cold nights.  I sleep fairly cold.  My Ghost whisperer and all these layers (except for the rain jacket, which usually stays outside my sleeping bag especially when wet) keep me warm in my Zpacks 20 bag down to around freezing.

Waiting a response from Borah Gear about a 5 oz jacket (or vest)…

Just got a response.  Looks like the down jacket will be likely back in stock next year, maybe in January sometime.  The medium weighs 5.15 oz.  I think this is just about perfect for my needs.  Now…what to do with my $300 Ghost Whisperer?  I suppose I can continue to wear it around town…looks stylish IMO.

I don’t think it matters what base layer you use, they all have about the same warmth.

I use a supplex nylon shirt I made.

And a 2.5 layer GoreTex like jacket.  Maybe it’s Shield?  Sort of thin.  But bulky so there’s an air layer between base layer and jacket.

My arms are warm enough.  I would expect many people to think that’s crazy, you need more warmth to keep your arms warm : )  You can have a little more warmth around your torso and less on your arms and your body compensates by sending blood where it’s needed.

What have we come to, chasing 1.75 oz’s to the tune of $250+!

I’m gad to see a vest mentioned. That’s the better way to a warm, weight saving end. When I started backpacking in 1975 they were de rigueur. Now they seem to have fallen from fashion, but I still see the vest as a viable alternative, coupled with a shell. I have a Ghost Whisperer, but can say I’d rather all its ounces be in a slightly loftier (warmer) vest. These thin, paltry UL down garments are a bit overrated IME.

I have an earlier model FF Hyperion vest 6.5oz med with 2.7oz of down and a WM Flight vest at 6.3oz med and 2.5oz of down.  I gave up on hoodless down jackets with less than 4.5oz of down in favor of the higher warmth to weight ratio of a higher filled vest for 3+ seasons.  My backpacking puffy for temps below 20f is a WM Flight jacket and my down balaclava (LUL).

What are the benefits of a down vest?  I understand more down can be put in a vest, but you still have to keep your arms warm right?.  I have always wondered if getting a down vest was better, but don’t quite understand why it is better.

I have always carried a UL down jacket.

benefit of vest:

the fabric contributes little to warmth.  Mainly, warmth is determined by the amount of down. Take the down from your jacket arms and put it on the torso and remove the fabric from the arms and it will weigh less but be about the same warmth.

your torso is warmer than your arms.  Therefore, there is more heat loss per area for your torso.  Putting the insulation on your torso will provide a little more warmth

your arms move around doing things.  Having insulation on them restricts movement, better to have it on your torso.

But, if it gets cold enough and you need a lot of insulation, then you have to start putting some of it around your arms

Of course, some people like vests, some don’t, you can try both and see if you have a preference.  The weight savings of a vest are fairly small.

Jerry while I agree with you that the weight saving of a vest over a jumper are small the argument that the extra weight gives greater benefit if used as down are valid.

I have a bit of a problem with terminology tho, isn’t an anorak by definition a hooded pullover shell garment? So saying that a hood-less anorak is preferred is confusing?

UL down sleeveless in the pullover [ also with snaps] style I found quite common in Europe where folk wear them as cold weather underwear

I like vests and waistcoats myself even if I don’t currently own one in UL but I don’t see the utility of one using less than 100 grams of down in a medium size, but that is simply my personal experience.

If I was to get an UL down vest I’d start by getting one from Uniqlo when they go on sale and work up or down from there

I’m just saying there’s an advantage to not having sleeves.  To say the same thing, a vest has advantages over jacket.

terminology is tricky.  English language is tricky to be unambiguous.

OK Basically we said the same thing using different phraseology

Years ago an Australian brand used to make a down vest with attached uninsulated sleeves, at the time I could not see the utility of such a garment but I do now and I have contemplated a DIY sew of such a garment

But uninsulated sleeves don’t make a lot of sense, very little warmth from just fabric, although it does result in having an air layer so there’s a little warmth.

Maybe better to take the weight of the sleeves, and add that amount of down to the vest.  That would be warmer.

Maybe you’d have to measure these two alternatives to find out which was best by how much.  Probably doesn’t make that much difference either way.

I think it depends on the under layer and whether or not you were wearing a windshell.

If your under layer was an R-1 and you were not wearing a windshirt the uninsulated sleeves would make a big difference, in this instance the sleeves fabric wouldn’t need to be downproof so an UL 10d fabric should work or Robic at 0.74 ounce even