Montbell Ex Light Anorak- A Contrarian View

I don't know where you get the 16% increase in insulation?
Is it from the average high to the low?
If so, then there is double the low with the vertical stitching.
To be honest, I see "a lot" more yellow in the Montbell than the Ghost.

Even with the higher loft, you have double the area for heat loss.
Is it just me that see's this or is it something else?

Hi Richard,

Thanks for the data. I'd largely written off the Anorak due to the negative discussion surrounding it. I'll have to give it a look. Do you have the iclo of the Ex Light Anorak?

Thanks!

Thanks Richard for testing this.

I sent my one back to Montbell just yesterday as the
open chambers were allowing the down to migrate in to other baffles, it was most noticeable in the hood and shoulders.

In my defense, my biggest complaint was NOT with the baffle design, rather it was to do with the overall design. Note my comments on the pocket design in combo with the addition of a zipper and the poorly fitting/sealing hood.

FYI, my biggest complaint was with the shite QA. It is not my job as a consumer to pay $219 for a jacket to spend a large amount of time distributing down in a jacket that should have been filled evenly in the first place.

I had an uneven fill issue with my original Alpine Light Down Parka as well. A pair of arm sections in the same arm had about 1/2 the down as the opposite arms sections. Montbell US swapped the jacket for me, but still comes down to poor QA. It might be important to note that both jackets I had the issue with were made in China. I know MB produces different items in different countries. Perhaps it's time for a new factory manager or factory…

HTH

KJ

Edit: Richard – The Stoic/BC Hadron Anorak has 2.3oz of 850FP…not 2.8oz. Also, where did you get the 7.9oz weight from for the Stoic/BC Hadron Anorak not having one in your hands to test? Lastly, what size jackets are you claiming weights on?

I might also add that comparing the Ghost Whisperer to the Hadron Anorak is completely apples to oranges…especially since you are basing your test off of baffle design. As Steven M's usage points out…maybe the ex light anorak should be used for a bit, then take note of the thermal preservation variances across the entire jacket.

Edit 2: Edited as second time for spelling errors in my original edit.

Kenneth,

Montbell are refunding me even though I purchased it in September (It was not used in the field). I do have a Mirage and Permafrost and they are top notch.

Steven, that is great news. No doubt in my mind that they are an upstanding company with great customer service! I just feel they really need to get a handle on their QA and stop trying to win the race of designing "the lightest jacket".

The Japanese of all people should know that when you put money first (ie – trying to outsell everyone else in the "lightest anorak" market), businesses fail. In my mind, they would have better spent their time focusing on making the jacket a winner in all regards rather than trying to dominate an UL market niche.

KJ

Richard,

I’m curious as to whether you have done any studies on down loft vs. down fill (oz). This study you conducted seems like an ideal setting for comparing a lower fp jacket with more down fill (2.8oz) vs a higher fp jacket with less fill (2.soz). Of course, if could be that it’s the ‘engineered baffle design and fill distribution’ and not the fp/fill that made the difference. Here’s what I’m getting at:

“Taking this one step further, the amount of down in a jacket is more directly related to the jacket’s warmth than the loft of the jacket. Jackets do not have to be designed so the down is allowed to fully loft; it can be packed more densely or partially compressed in the jacket’s shell, and the jacket will be just as warm (though it is true that many manufacturers do allow the down to more fully expand so the jacket looks puffier, because puffier jackets are perceived by buyers to be warmer jackets).”

Taken from Richard’s earlier study

"To be honest, I see "a lot" more yellow in the Montbell than the Ghost.

Even with the higher loft, you have double the area for heat loss.
Is it just me that see's this or is it something else?"

Yup…and his measurement selection areas are not of equal size and dimensions in the images he has provided.

As per the article Drew linked above, "The bottom line is that jacket quilting has little effect on overall jacket warmth; the main factor affecting warmth is the amount of down in the jacket." …and if the down distribution isn't and/or does not remain even, you're left with significantly decreased areas of heat retention (read: cold spots)…not to mention the huge holes that are the non-sealable pockets with nothing but a layer of 7d on the back-side.

KJ

Great discussion, and applause to Richard for a very in depth test.
My experience with the Ex Light Anorak would no way put me off purchasing from Montbell in the future.

Aaron,

You said, "I don't know where you get the 16% increase in insulation?"

The thermograph’s colors are my attempt for non-experts to intuitively compare garments thermal performance. Experts thoroughly understand the design of a guarded hot plate and just need the single average Iclo number. In other words, for a better intuitive understanding, look at the proportion of different colors. You are ignoring the preponderance of dark purple for the EX Light.

Let’s look at the Montbell Ex Light Anorak Thermograph in more detail. I manually selected a test area, near the center of the guarded hot plate, which best represents the garment's ratio of seams to surface area. Every garment will have a different size averaging area that best represents the repeating pattern. The red upwards facing triangle represents the hottest pixel at 81.1F (lowest insulation) and the blue downwards facing triangle represents the coldest pixel at 74.2F (highest insulation) within the test area. Every pixel within the test area has a unique temperature reading. For the selected test area, there are 11,648 pixels or discrete temperature readings. The average temperature reading, of 11,648 measurements, was 76.8F and the associated Iclo value for that average was 1.173.

The EX Light average Iclo value is 1.173. The corresponding average Iclo value for the Ghost Whisperer is .988. The difference is the simple calculation of 1 – (.988 / 1.173) = .14919 or ~15%.

Thanks for taking the time Richard. Its funny, I'd seen the strong negative (first)impressions of the anorak, which didn't match up with my experiences, and I thought to myself, this would be a good time for some iclo information from R. Nisley. I'm glad to find out that the ex light comes out a little warmer than the ghost, a jacket already considered warm for the weight.

Personally, I think this jacket is plenty warm for 6 oz. The features are also a really elegant execution of minimalism. I bought it specifically to fit in a vest pack for mountain runs/day hikes but I'm sure this will become a go to summer backpacking piece, too. The down in my jacket is evenly distributed. The hood fits me quite well, but I also sized the jacket closely, a M at 6'2 175. As for the pockets, I doubt that much warmth actually escapes that way b/c of the significant overlap of down. The other thing that it takes some use to realize, is that when your just sitting out in the cold, you end up with your arms crossed through the kango pocket, which turns out to be quite cozy and seals out those drafts.

I think I must of got a dud from the good things folks are saying here,
also when I held mine up to a light I could see a lot of pin holes between the seems.

Doesn't that mean that the Mont-bell UL Down inner is warmer? It has a higher Iclo in Richards original graph (in the a new paradigm to understand garment warmth thread). Granted that jacket weighs more (my 2008 medium is 7oz) but has less down if I remember correctly (I think it was 2oz of 800fill). Am I missing something?

"stop trying to win the race of designing "the lightest jacket"."

Crazy talk!! : )

Ryan

For those of you who aren't familiar with thermal testing equipment, Richard is using a device known as a "guarded hotplate". In this type of equipment the inner test plate, outer thermal guard ring, and a hidden lower thermal guard are all set at the same skin temperature, typically around 35C.

Because the outer and lower thermal guards prevent the test plate in the center from losing heat in any direction except up and out through the sample being tested, it's an easy calculation to equate power-in to heat-lost. That calculation results in a Rct or "clo" value, which is the material's thermal resistance, or, put another way, the insulative value of the fabric or material being tested.

Richard is taking it one further step by using some IR imagery as a visual aid. Remember however, that hotplate calculations take an average of the heat loss rates across the entire test plate surface area, while in the IR your eye tends to zero in only on the bright spots where heat loss is highest (typically the stitching lines). So "clo" values and IR images are really an apples and oranges kind of thing, but both can be useful.

Hi David

Nice photo, but why a square shape? We (my research group) built one many years ago for wool fabrics, but we made it all round, to avoid any anomalies at the corners. Mind you, we did not do any tests to see IF the corners upset things, so I am just wondering.

Cheers

Hi Roger,

TOG meters were an early type of guarded hotplate that had a round shape, but long ago the ASTM and ISO standards community settled on a square design for hotplate devices. I doubt the square shape of current designs are any better or worse than the older round ones – in both variations the test plates are isolated and thermally protected by an outer guard ring. That's the key to getting accurate results.

And, for those that are interested, you can use this too to calculate an RET-value, like Gore does for their GTX-stuff.

I have really enjoyed using my Ex Light Anorak. I have owned both, the UL Down Inner Jacket and the Parka, as well as the regular Ex Light (not to mention the Alpine Light Down Parka, but it is too warm for me to use while backpacking, so it doesn't count). I have sold all but the Ex Light Anorak. IMO, they are all about the same warmth (minus the Apline Light), but the EL Anorak has both, the features, and the low weight, so I kept it. It's not perfect (I wish the hood had at least a shock cord around the opening), but it is definitely the best option for me.

It is interesting to see the actual testing on the EL Anorak too, and nice to see it compared to the MH Ghost Whisperer… I have always wondered about it, but was too happy with my MB jackets to go for it… After seeing this, I don't think I will be wondering any more… :)

to those of you who have it, do you see the same down-shifting problem that Ken did? for example, no down at all in the hood, or large collections of baffles with no down at all….

I wondered how much of a one-off dud Ken got, vs was it a larger QC problem (since Stephen seemed to have an issue as well – maybe the same batch?)

I'm in the market for a light puffy and can't decide whether to keep this on my radar or not.

Montbell TRIES to make good stuff, but like every other company, it is made up of human beings, they screw up from time to time. Se la vie… Montbell has had minor QC issues in the past. You have to remember these jackets are most likely made in the same Chinese factories as the cheaper brands.

Add spotty Chinese QC at times with a design that really pushes the boundries of weight vs warmth and stuff happens. It would be interesting for Richard to have actually gotten his hands on mechanically defective garments that folks sent back as well as testing the perfect ones.

Montbell needs to step up their game in terms of QC. Folks who buy high performance UL gear are neither dummies nor beggars. They have a right to expect quality at MBs price points. There are not enough folks like Richard in the world to defend their reputation when they screw up.

I've had a little down shifting in the lower back, but none in the hood or sleeves. One of these days I'll hand stitch those baffles closed, but it's been a very minor problem so far and I haven't bothered.

After about ten nights of use, I can't tell a difference in warmth between the Ex Light Anorak and my old UL Down Parka. I don't regret switching and saving a few ounces.

My experience has been a bit of a crap shoot with MB's quality. I had issue with two sleeping bags that were severely underfilled in some areas. I do have a Pro Thermawrap that has been excellent but that is synthetic.

Of all 5 jackets I have had by MB, I was happy with their fill and thier distribution. Even with my Ex Light Anorak, I am happy, but like Andrew mentioned, the down in the back of the jacket can shift, but so far, in my limited experience, it's not much, and it only seems to happen when doing things like wearing it under a backpack, or sleeping in it. But, with an open baffle design, it's what should be expected, and would be the same for any other similarly built jacket.

I also have a 2014 model of the Down Hugger 800 #3 sleeping bag. To me, the bag appears to be evenly & sufficiently filled, and has proven to be accurately rated for me.

Some thoughts on thier bags though… I don't know how long they have been EN rating thier bags, but mine is. It seems like a lot of thier older bags picked up a bit of slack about being underfilled. IMHO, I think this is somewhat due to the fact that the bag's stretch (which is a bit overhyped IME), which pulls the fill a bit thinner due to the larger surface area, and maybe even compresses the down a bit more due to the stress being applied to the shell. While I like my #3 bag quite a bit actually, I think the design really makes it hard to get the bag right…

As for their QC, again, based on my own experience with 5 different jackets, and 1 sleeping bag, I can't complain. But as jimmer puts it: "but like every other company, it is made up of human beings, they screw up from time to time." I think the key words here is every other company. There is a ton of MB stuff out there, and I wonder if there may seem to be more complaints against it because there just may be more of it than there are other brands… True, TNF, Patagonia, MH and others are definitely out there, but it seems like every down jacket conversation includes something about MB…

And just so everyone knows, no, I am not affiliated with Montbell in any way. I have just had excellent experiences with them in all cases.