Stoves for Philmont – all the typical questions

[Roger Caffin]

This reduces the reflected heat from impacting the canister
I know of at least two people who have died as a result of using large pots. The fuel tanks blew up.

It is the requirements for crew cooking (Patrol Method) which is obsolete and dangerous if it requires the use of dangerously large pots. Not only can they cause blow-ups, they can also cause the stove+pot to unbalance and fall over. Nothing would be lost if they switched to permitting two cooks at a time.

Cheers

[DAN-Y/FANCEE FEEST]

Use your favorite remote feed with the steel version of the folding sterno stove. It will support your large pots. Make it work for you ;)

 

[Bruce Tolley]

I am not sure whether Philmont has a policy about Sterno fueled stoves but it looks like they are permissable according to the BSA chemical fuels policy here:

https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss06/

 

[Roger Caffin]

I would add that cooking in one 8 L pot over one stove is going to be much slower than cooking in several smaller pots over several stoves. How hungry are you?

And of course, if you have two stoves with two pots, you can have rice in one pot and ‘stew’ in the other pot. Very classy.

Cheers

[Brad P]

Are there many reports of these stoves being dangerous in use at Philmont?

[David Y]

Again, from the 2018 Philmont Guidebook To Adventure, page 15

“<span style=”color: #ff0000;”>If using isobutane/propane fuel stoves, be sure that they are designed to hold an 8 quart pot</span>. <span style=”color: #ff0000;”>The safest stoves on the market that accomplish this requirement have a fuel line that separates the canister from the stove. This reduces the reflected heat from impacting the canister</span> and permits the user the ability to adjust the temperature safely. “

Those stoves <span style=”color: #ff0000;”><span style=”color: #000000;”>with</span> a fuel line that separate the canister from the stove</span>’s heat also permit the use of windscreen to concentrate heat on the pot and shield it from the fuel container.

And if you are using an MSR WhisperLite or Dragonfly very capable of supporting a full 8 quart pot boil time is minimal.

[DAN-Y/FANCEE FEEST]

I am not sure whether Philmont has a policy about Sterno fueled stoves but it looks like they are permissible according to the BSA chemical fuels policy here:

Bruce, just use the frame work of the stove as your pot support. I didn’t mean for anyone to use the jelled fuel. I said, use your favorite remote feed canister stove inside the frame/pot support. The frame will easily support a gallon of water, try it with a 2 gallon pot. The frame folds flat. Sterno also makes the frame in aluminum.

[Joe S]

I went to Philmont a couple of years ago, we cooked with a jetboil with a 1.5(?) liter pot and another canister stove with one of the jetboil pots with the heat converter that was 4 or 5 liters.  They made us take the big 8 liter pot, but we left it in the gear locker back at base.  Of course it wasn’t until dinner the first night that our ranger found out we didn’t have it, but he was a cool guy and didn’t seem to care that much.  We cooked in the bags that the food came in, except I think there was one night where we had to cook in the 5 liter pot or use separate freezer bags.  I don’t remember why exactly but I think it was because the meal wasn’t just a dehydrated mountain house meal, but instead was instant potatoes, cheese and beef jerky or something like that.  The final night our ranger was with us he said that at first he wasn’t too sure about the whole cook in the bag deal since it wasn’t what we were supposed to do and he had never done it before, but he realized we knew what we were doing and was glad that we opened his eyes to the ease of cooking in the food bags.

I know in the past groups would use a turkey bag as a pot liner so they wouldn’t have to clean, but groups were having issues with that, I think a couple of them ended melting the bags which is why they stopped allowing it.  We packed out all of our dirty bags after we cooked in them, but I see how it could be an issue if people were just leaving them in the campsite.

Personally I don’t like canister stoves that much, but I have not used them very often since I don’t own any.  The only stoves I have are Svea 123s and alcohol stoves, but in the future I could see myself getting canister stoves especially now that we are able to refill canisters so that you can bring only the amount of fuel you need.  For philmont I would not hesitate to use canister stoves again, but I definetly recommend using two instead of just one.

In terms of bring the water to a hard boil we were always too impatient to do that, so once we started seeing a good amount of bubbles we would dip our spoons in it for a few seconds and then start adding the water to the food bags.

I would recommend just cooking in the food bags instead of in the pot even though it is frowned apon, worst case if your ranger doesn’t allow you to do it and makes you cook in the pot for the night where he or she is with you after wards you can start cooking in the food bags.  Also if they try and make you take the big 8 liter pot just take it from them and then ditch it in the gear locker right before you leave, it is easier to ask for forgiveness than permission.

[Roger Caffin]

it is easier to ask for forgiveness than permission.
:)

[Bruce Tolley]

RE; Bag cooking. My understanding is that the issue was not with folks melting bags but the disposal of 1000s of bags at the staffed camps. All the trash is packed out, some via donkeys and Philmont rightly in my mind thought the use of the bags was wasteful.  That being said, many crews have used various rigid, reusable containers such as rubbermaid containers and cut down plastic milk carton to re-hydrate food, often in combination with cozies.

The patrol method: The <b>Patrol Method</b>. <b>Patrols</b> are the building blocks of a Boy Scout troop. … Working together as a team, <b>patrol</b> members share the responsibility for the <b>patrol’s</b> success. They gain confidence by serving in positions of <b>patrol</b> leadership.

Forgiveness vs permission. Our crew checked out the whole pot set but we used two 4 liter pots we brought from home.  The Ranger showed the crew the Philmont one pot method which we accomplished with these smaller pots and the use of two stoves.  I personally do not think the Philmont cooking procedure method really contributes much to the spirit of the BSA patrol method. My main objection is often one Scout was alone in the dark scrubbing a pot that the cook had burned. But at Philmont the adult advisor is there for safety.

The use of very large pots on top of stoves however, is a safety issue.  If you read the fine print of most stove manuals both white gas and isobutane stoves there is usually a guideline on the maximum diameter of pot that should be used.

The adult advisor vis a vis the Ranger. The scouts are always learning even when the adult Scouter is not teaching. The Ranger is there to train the Scouts on the basics of backpacking and Philmont policies, procedures and spirit.  The adult advisor is there for safety and to make sure the Scouts get home in one piece. The Philmont Ranger is a delegated authority. If needed, have your crew show the Ranger their preferred cooking method that they have practiced several times on trips before Philmont, and convince him. Please do not argue with the Ranger or disagree with him once he has left.  You are just teaching the Scouts they can do whatever they please and break rules when they feel like it.

 

[Matthew / BPL]

A scout is trustworthy, loyal… obedient…

You are all welcome to do whatever you think is right but my feeing is that not following the rules diminishes the intrinsic value and meaning of scouting. If your scouts want to go to Philmont then I think it is best to follow the Philmont way.

That said, I perceive the Philmont way as archaic and complicated. My son has similar feelings. He has suggested that he’d rather go on another extended trip in the Sierra with me rather than jumping through all the hoops of Philmont. I’m ok with that :)

[Brad P]

A scout is trustworthy, loyal… obedient…

That’s my attitude, too. I disagree with some of the rules, but it’s a bad example to set for the scouts if you intentionally break them.

[Joe S]

RE; Bag cooking. My understanding is that the issue was not with folks melting bags but the disposal of 1000s of bags at the staffed camps. All the trash is packed out, some via donkeys and Philmont rightly in my mind thought the use of the bags was wasteful.  That being said, many crews have used various rigid, reusable containers such as rubbermaid containers and cut down plastic milk carton to re-hydrate food, often in combination with cozies.

I don’t understand how cooking in the bags that the food comes in would create any more trash than cooking in a pot, both ways you still are going to have a bag that needs to get thrown away, one is just a little dirtier than the other.  If you bring separate bags to cook in I could see that extra trash could become an issue, but if you just cook in the bags they come in then you are not creating any more trash then you would cooking in a pot.  As far as I remember all of the bags were rated to take boiling water, even if they didn’t explicitly say so, I think one of the leaders called mountain house or whoever made the meals and checked with them beforehand to see if it was ok to do.

A scout is trustworthy, loyal… obedient…

This is a good point that I definitely did not consider at the time, but I was a scout when I went, not a leader.  I feel like of all rules to break the cooking ones make the most sense and its not like you are creating more of a safety risk unlike if you say don’t follow the rules for hanging your food from bears.  It might even end up being safer it keeps you from using a larger pot on the stove than it is meant for, something that would have probably happened to us if we were forced to use the 8 liter pot.

While a lot of the philmont methods are a bit archaic, I can see why they don’t want to change what they are doing.  If you change up one of the methods for something they think is better and more modern, there will likely be some people that complain about it and if anything goes wrong they will say it wouldn’t have happened if they kept doing things the old way, so it makes sense why they are reluctant to change.

On all of the backpacking trips I went on with my scout troop and later venturing crew all of our cooking was done freezer bag style, except for when we caught a couple of fish up in the boundary waters.  I know on a couple of trips we even used philmont meals from when they sell off their leftovers at the end of the summer, so we were very familiar with what we were doing, which probably helped in persuading our ranger to let us cook that way.  Now that I have thought about it more I think our ranger made us cook using the proper philmont method the first night and then would let us cook our way the second night and if he thought our way was fine he would let us do it the third and final night he was with us also.

 

I’m sure you have probably already heard most of this next stuff but just in case you haven’t here’s some extra food advice.

Also depending on how your trek plan works out against your meal schedule you might want to switch around what days you have certain meals so that if you have a early morning where you are going to climb a mountain you would have a no cook breakfast so that you can get out of camp sooner.  You want to swap whole days worth of meals, not just breakfasts otherwise you could end up getting more or less amounts of calories or vitamins than you are supposed to, since the meals are worked out so that everyday you get a certain amount of calories (I think it is 3000 but I could be wrong) and all of the recommended daily value of vitamins and other important nutritious stuff.  It probably won’t be that big of a deal if you switch a certain meal instead of the whole day, but its better to be safe than sorry.

There was one person in our crew that would not eat enough and then bonk out part way through the day and end up hiking really slow and we would always have to wait for him.  So you might have to prod people to eat even if they don’t feel like.  Midway through the afternoon he would always seem to slow down and he would say that he was really tired, we could all see that it was because he wasn’t eating enough, but he didn’t seem to realize himself that it was the issue, so after it happened a couple of times we had to tell him that if he ate more he wouldn’t get tired as quickly.  I don’t remember this issue showing up in training trips, but I think that it because one weekend wasn’t long enough for him to develop a very large calorie deficit.  Also at dinner he would eat all of the granola bars and cookies and stuff that came in the meal, but then would eat hardly any of cooked meal which was really annoying because then you are carrying around a partially eaten soggy messy meal like lasagna or something instead of prepackaged food which is less messy and if someone gets hungry later and needs extra food they could eat.  So if some of the scouts in your group don’t have a large enough appetite to eat all of their food, I would try to get them to eat the cooked food first.  Of course if for whatever reason they don’t want to I wouldn’t force it, but it is something to consider and maybe talk about beforehand.

[Bob Shuff]

Hi Joe S (and others),

That’s great advice on eating the cooked food first.  I’m not used to teenage boys leaving extra food on the table (or pot), but I’ve heard many people lose their appetite the first few days at altitude.  Our crew is pretty much lives at sea level, so that’s definitely something for us to watch out for.

Cooking in the bags the food comes in seems like an obvious idea to me.  I’m with you and others here that we need to respect the Philmont rules and Rangers.  It’s encouraging that the scouts, especially the crew leader might convince the ranger that the cook in bag method is an acceptable alternative.  I was personally planning to take a ziploc screw top container and cozy for my mess kit.  Even if we still carry the Philmont big pots, cooking the food in the bags or eating containers it will reduce the cleanup.

I’m pretty sure it was the Turkey bag cooking method that was no longer allowed – it’s specifically mentioned on Philmont’s website.  I don’t even care to know how that worked.  We also cook in freezer ziploc bags on most unit backpacks to save bulk.  That would be a lot of work, and extra waste for the large number of hikers each summer at Philmont, so cooking in the bags the food came in is completely acceptable in my mind.

[Jeffrey Peters]

I believe the problem with cooking in the philmont food bags is that is causes more trash. When you come into to  a  manned camp one of the first things the staff point out is the bag snake and ask you to add your empty bags to it. They then point out where the trash goes. If the bags have waste food in them they now become trash.

My suggestion is  to follow the Philmont way. Don’t try to game the system. There are plenty of ways to save weight at Philmont that won’t cause conflict with the rangers.  Philmont has reasons for thier methods and rules.  It is easier and set a better example for our scouts if you go ahead and follow the rules.

[Roger Caffin]

I am still struggling to understand. When we are out for a week we leave ZERO trash behind. Any food packets we bring and empty are put in OUR rubbish bag and taken home. Why cannot every Philmont crew do this?

Zero Impact: Leave No Trash behind!

Cheers

[Brad P]

Where you dispose of the turkey bag doesn’t change the amount of added waste.

Now if you cooked in the supplied bags, then there would be no additional waste. But Philmont insists on using the patrol method and cooking all the food in 1 pot.

This is where I disagree. I think teaching better backpacking cooking skills is more important than teaching the patrol method.

[William Harmon]

Hi all, I was a Ranger in ’15 and ’16 and hope to add some Ranger insight. However, I want to stress the idea that these are my personal opinions and not necessarily the views of the Ranch.

Roger, I agree there should be no issue of trash being left behind. However, not everyone pays enough attention to their impact, as you and your troop do. Look at the issue of world peace. Using the same logic, you could say “I am nice to everyone I meet: why can’t our world leaders and all 7.6 billion other people act the same way?” Or “I follow the speed limits and drive safely: so why do we need to have traffic cops and speed traps and strict regulations on driving?” Just because one individual is able to do something doesn’t mean everyone is able to do the exact same thing. You must understand that Philmont is the first major backpacking trek for many people, beyond shakedown hikes. Not everyone at Philmont has the same knowledge and values as the people on this forum.

Turkey bag time. When I went on trek in 2013, our returning advisor actually said how they used those bags in 2010(?). However, when we got there we were told that they were banned and so we didn’t bring any on trail. The reasoning we were told, and I was taught, was about the amount of waste. So, as has already been said earlier, it has to do with how the staff camps have to deal with trash. Unless you carry your waste with you for your entire trek, quite the feat, you will leave trash at a staff camp. All 20,000 people who come through Philmont each summer do this. So, if you have a normal load of trash, which can still be quite a lot during the busy times, and then you add on 1 turkey bag for each crew per day, it adds up quickly. Assuming a standard crew size of 10 (I have seen as few as 8 and as many as 14), that’s 2000 crews. With 1 turkey bag a cooked meal (maybe 1.5 a day to account for cook breakfasts), that’s 7-18 bags a trek (depending on trek length and amount of cooked meals). Multiple that by the number of crews (we’ll average it to 12 turkey bags a trek), and you have 24000 turkey bags as additional trash. So, with more trash, that means more trips for vehicles into the backcountry, which decreases the possible wilderness qualities and raising costs for the Ranch, possibly raising costs for scouts. This also doesn’t account for wet years. In ’16, it was muddy enough for a time that Carson Meadows specifically was not able to get their regular staff food resupply, and I believe they stopped accepting trash from participants. That math may be on the upper end of the trash load, but it’s meant to show that turkey bags impact to the current trash load.

I am going to agree with Matthew on his point, and diverge with my own. As a leader in your troop, you set an example for your scouts, whether or not you teach them outright or by your actions. If you smile and follow your Ranger’s advice, then turn around the day they leave and do things your own way: you are teaching your scouts that they can do whatever they feel is in their best personal interest. Regardless of the regulations of the land they are using. It would be like going to the Sierra, showing a Park Ranger you bear cans, and then leaving them in the cars because you believe they are heavy and bulky (which they are lol). You still follow the regulations, even if the regulations are somewhat archaic and could be improved (e.g., Ursack).

So this kinda leads me to my personal belief on why you should follow the Philmont method while at Philmont. It’s because you are at Philmont. If you disagree that strongly with Philmont policies, please provide reasonable evidence and arguments and email them to Philmont. However, if you seriously don’t want to have to carry so many layers, or food that isn’t always the densest, or cook your own way, or even be able to hike the mileage you would like: make your own high adventure. If you want to hike all day and don’t care about the programming, plan a backpacking trip to the Sierra, the Rockies, or even Carson National Forest right outside of the Ranch. You can be in complete control of how you want your trip to go, beyond governing land regulations. IMO, Philmont is a wonderful opportunity to choose to do unique programs, not have to plan logistics (food, travel, gear to some extent), and get into backpacking. There are only a few trek options that are the “all-day” type of backpacking (read Andrew Skurka’s breakdown between overnight hikers and backcountry campers) that really gear towards the ultralight mindset.

Sorry if this comes off as more of a rant than a helpful post. I just feel pretty strongly about this. lol

[Matthew / BPL]

Excellent post, William.

I agree that making your own high adventure is a very reasonable choice if Philmont does not meet the needs/preferences of your scouts/troop.

[David Y]

I agree with William and several others on this point.

If you don’t want to follow Philmont’s rules then don’t go to Philmont. Leave to those who love and respect it the way it is.

And to pretend to follow Philmont’s rules only as long as the Ranger is watching but to break the rules as soon as he leaves is the worst example you can set for your youth.

Integrity (honor) means doing the right thing, especially when no one is watching.

[William Harmon]

I do want to stress the idea that I don’t support a “if you don’t like the way it is, you can leave” mentality for Philmont. As I tried to illustrate by saying that you should certainly lodge reasonable complaints, with supporting evidence, to the Ranch to consider: the regulations of the Ranch don’t have to operate in perpetuity. They can change, as some of the policies have (i.e., Ranger ax, Ranger cobbler, designing your own trek). However, while the current policies still stand, they should still be followed.

Instead of talking on here about why you don’t like certain policies, spend that time finding evidence (ideally peer-reviewed journals, but that’s a tough topic with backpacking stoves) to build a case to present to Philmont. And, please don’t present it to your Ranger when you arrive. As the “lowest” person in the hierarchy of the Ranger Department they have no real authority to decide on policy change for the entire Ranch. Although there may be Rangers who are more lenient, do not count on it.

Philmont should be accessible to every Scout, as Scouting should be accessible to every youth. As every Scout has a different level of knowledge and skill, especially pertaining to backpacking, Philmont has to be able to accommodate those who are less experienced than many of the people here. Happy trails! IWGBTP

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