Sleep system hypothetical- review request

You’ve got the right idea.

“If you’re not wearing all your clothes to sleep, you brought too many clothes.”

You might pick up a small, battery powered thermometer/hygrometer with a remote temp probe.  These are relatively light and cheap.  Mine retains min/max values, so I leave it outside over night, with the remote sensor inside the tent.  This has helped me calibrate what conditions which of my gear keeps me comfortable in.

My myog Apex quilt (similar spec’s to the Spirit 48) keeps me comfortable in a shared summer tent wearing only base layers, no hat, down to 45F, 75% humidity.  I’m not sure how low I can go if I add my down clothing, but I wouldn’t take this quilt if I was expecting temps below freezing.

You also need to factor your sleeping pad’s R value in to the equation.

You might consider the quilts w/ a head hole in the middle for use as a poncho around camp.

Also you could factor in the shared warmth of a couples double sized quilt.

Rogers idea but common with HA and Alpine climbers too.

For my penny’s worth, it seems you’re adding more weight (bolstered clothing) in order to shed less weight (lighter sleeping bag).  But a quick calculation on your part can resolve that with greater precision.

I think you might also be surprised how little additional warmth sleeping in down clothes provides.  When worn underneath bedding while spooning up next to someone, they’ll likely get pretty compressed (and possibly damp) and much less effective.  You may still need a warmer bag than you expect.

@ Eric. You don’t say what your current sleep system is or under what kind of shelter your hypothetical sleep system will be used, but your hypothetical scenario sounds reasonable.

When I expect night time temps under 40, I sleep just fine with baselayer plus Montbell UL down sweater inside a MLD 38 quilt under a tarp. Sometimes I add Montbell UL down pants and use bivy sack to control drafts.

You could start experimenting with your system outside in your backyard when the night time temperatures approach your hypothetical use case.

I was under the impression that sleeping in your warm layers was SOP for Ultralighters?

While it’s true that the clothing under you gets compressed you should have a mattress system suitable for the worst temperatures that might be possible so that becomes a smaller issue. Easy enough to layer up for an inch of insulation to give you a boost of ten degrees. Given the original queries emphasis on camp comfort I interpreted the question as being what sort of clothing layer gives adequate camp comfort at temperatures close to freezing and that is easily found in Richards excellent article on the subject

I agree with Matt (@mhr).

In my experience, sleeping bags/quilts (paired with suitably insulated pads) are remarkably efficient (per ounce) at keeping a stationary human body warm.

In contrast I have found insulated clothing to be surprisingly inefficient (per ounce) at keep that same stationary human body warm.

Put another way: if you even have a single piece of clothing that you are primarily just using to sleep in, then that weight would be more efficiently allocated to a warmer sleeping bag/quilt (or a warmer sleeping pad).

Waking and sleeping are two very different physiological states. Night and day are two very different meteorological states. So much so that I think it’s very much worth carrying two different systems for staying warm in both, in my opinion.

Being cold at night is miserable enough for me that it’s simply not worth the minuscule weight savings (if any) to try and skimp on a sleeping bag/quilt to skirt the edge.

With the exception of my merino wool long underwear (which I consider an integral part of my sleep system, and only an emergency layer in my clothing system) I look at worn clothing at night as purely bonus warmth to help with that unexpectedly low temperature that I might encounter, but probably won’t.

I am well aware that this isn’t a very UL mindset, but having the promise of being clean, warm, and dry at night is part and parcel with my happiness on any backcountry trip, and that’s what matter most to me. YMMV.

I realize that this is Backpacking Light, but I think this is a classic case of trying to squeeze too much spreadsheet performance out of a system at the expense of real-world convenience.

What I’m hearing is that you simply need warmer camp clothes on relatively casual trips with your girlfriend.  Trying to offset that increase by cutting back on your sleep system…what are you going to save…a pound at best?  All other things being equal, that’s a single can of beer in your pack; hardly a performance deal-breaker.

If you’re not racing, setting FKTs, etc., I’d say why bother.  Up your clothing insulation, leave your sleeping bag alone…done.

Super impressed with the diversity of thought :)  thanks all, I think ive found my answer!

Always interested in how other people do things so please post your proposed system for us.

This is a great thread.  I am pretty happy with my kit with the total exception of food and clothing.  Just minor issues!   I think there are basically two types of hikers.  Ones who hike all day and just crawl into a sleeping bag as soon as they stop.  Then there are my type. Get up early, hike hard, but make camp at 4 pm or so. Enjoy the evening and stars.  So, I need a different clothing set because I need clothing to keep me warm at the hardest time. End of day, sitting, bit damp from sweating, but still wanting to move around.  So, I end up with on the trail clothes that have been described here extensively.  But I bring a synthetic puffy, wool hat, light wool underwear top and my favorite piece of gear, synthetic puffy pants.  If it is in the 20’s or teens, I will bring a down parka.  I use a 20 degree quilt and may sleep in everything listed except the parka, if needed.  I sleep cold.  This is a lot of clothing, but for hanging around camp, that is what I need.  If I try to imitate the longer distance hikers, I freeze in camp in the evenings.  To me, this is a HYOH deal, kind of like shoes.  Not comfortable, no fun.   Hope this makes sense.  Listening for other ideas.

That last few hours of the day just sitting in camp [ and if allowed by the camp fire] is my favourite time and why I love bushwalking so much.

So I also need a substantial static warm layer or three.

My warmest layers will not fit inside my sleeping bag so I do sometimes compromise there, sometimes a lot, if I plan to wear warm clothing to sleep in

“Then there are my type. Get up early, hike hard, but make camp at 4 pm or so.”

Third type of hiker is me. I do this^ but go to sleep at literally 530 or 6.

Mathew K.  Ditto many days!  A hiking buddy once said to me as I crawled into my sleeping bag.

“Do you want me to set an alarm so you can see the sun go DOWN?”

One night my wife and I were camping, in October..and the night time temps dropped to around 18 degrees F. I was cold in my 25deg bag, and could not sleep. My wife was too cold as well. I put on my Montbell superior down hoodie (“parka”) and montbell thermawrap UL pants, and fell back asleep…I felt much warmer. So, in therory, wearing the clothes inside the bag compressed the loft of the clothing. But yet, it did make a difference and help me sleep fairly warmly.

Glad you asked-this is a good thread. Here’s my take on it: I hate getting out of a warm bag when snow camping, but the last couple trips I used a lighter bag and slept in my regular day shirt, light down jacket, fleece house pants and was happy as a clam even as I climbed out of my bag.

Everything doubled as warm sit-around-camp clothes keeping me comfy.

I will have to read the rest of this thread as no doubt there’s a lot for me to learn here.

if you take a 50 degree quilt and try to push it to 25 w/ a few insulating layers- you’ll freeze your a$$ off

in an emergency situation, ie day hiking and have to spend a night out- yup, perfect for that, you’ll still freeze your a$$ off, but you’ll be tickled to still be alive in the morning

can you push a bag/quilt w/ clothing you’ve brought anyways, absolutely – I do it often, 25 degrees?  not without a lot of suffering

Yeah, what Mike M said.

I’m in a 15 deg (survival rating) bag, at not less than 25 deg, with enough layers to be comfortable without starting to sweat at all. It’s a learning curve optimizing comfort, weight, and safety.

I sleep with my clothes on when they are dry but most of the time they are wet from sweat and/or rain.  So they are not a reliable source of warmth.   I rely 100% on the bag for that.  I don’t want even one cold night.

I have experimented with combining insulating clothing but a lighter weight quilt, but went back to use a quilt which was ideal for the weather I expected… my insulating clothing is used under the quilt if the weather drops below “expected” (e.g. safety buffer).

Adding a bit more insulation to a quilt is very insulation/weight efficient. Remember that a significant amount of weight of clothing is the fabric, not the insulation. Furthermore, the amount of insulation needed when active -vs- sleeping is significant. The insulating clothing I bring is quite inadequate to keep me warm while sleeping. Put another way, would you both with insulated pants on your normal trip.  If not, add that weight as insulation to your quilt and you will be a lot more cozy.

–Mark

I used a 40F Montbell Super Stretch bag with various insulating garments as my sleep system for about a decade. The Super Stretch bags easily accommodate worn insulation. Using Richard Nisley’s clo graphs and tables, I was able to work out that, in general, the amount of insulation I need for “camp chores” was about the right amount of insulation I need to push my 40F bag into the nightime low.  So unless I was going to jump right into my bag after making camp, this was a pretty efficient system.

Now that I’m 10 years older, I’ve switched to a 20F quilt and will use my camp insulation to push the quilt as needed. So I’m not as efficient anymore, but I rationalize that I’ve got more safety and that the quilt is lighter than my old bag with its heavy elastic baffles, so oh well.

I did enjoy the old system, though, and if I buy another Montbell Super Stretch bag I might return to it, but this time with a 30F bag to compensate for my decreased hardiness.

I sure cannot disagree with any of the points made, as I haven’t been tested yet with days of really bad weather soaking into everything, but I still pack my fears.

So much to learn and experiment with different techniques and philosophies.

The best way I have found to add more warmth for less weight is to leave things like down jackets and down pants home and instead I add a 45 degree quilt to my 20 degree quilt.  The 45 degree quilt is a Jacks R Better wearable quilt, so I can wear it around camp. I almost never need to hike wearing a down jacket, so a down jacket really is just an around camp item for me.

I am intrigue Dianne, how comfortable is one of those to wear and are they really effective at keeping you warm? Would an added hood make them less effective as a sleeping cover even it it made them warmer as a garment?
I did make an insulating poncho once but it was so stupidly warm I never used it, even my beloved wife who feels the cold thought it was too warm

>> happy as a clam even as I climbed out of my bag.
Not me mate, not me (in the snow).
I sit up, put on any extra clothing, groan, THEN open my eyes.
Then make breakfast for Sue.
Then Sue gets up.

Cheers