Sleep clothes

Ha!  This sounds like a rule written by someone who’s never actually tried to do it…

“never in your tent” is a bit of an overstatement.  Most people either change in their tent then take their day cloths out and put them in pack pack.  Or take their sleep cloths into  the woods to change and take their day cloths back to their pack.

Naturally you would take more care if your day cloths had a really big spill than just everyday crumbs and dribbles.  A big spill would probably mean they go up in the food bags.

And as of 2019 – packs were no longer being stored under the fly.  They are being leaned up against a tree (not hung from a branch).  The explanation was that packs in a line/pile under the fly all get damaged as the critter is finding the smellable in the one pack.

Jay L, this is all a bit strange to me. It makes me chuckle a little bit. But we will follow the guides. We had a service camp out this weekend. It was under 40 degrees, rainy and windy. To follow the Philmont rules in this situation, we would have had to go into our tents and change into bed clothes. Then what? Run over to our backpacks against trees in the Bearmuda triangle 50 foot away, take off the 3/4 rain cover, put our wet clothes and shoes in there, strap back on the cover and run back to the tent barefoot in the rain. Then get into the tent wet and cold while hoping our backpacks don’t collect too much water from the driving rain?

While this may have been part of the Lowcountry Spring, I also get told over and over how cold it will get at night in Philmont.

If clothing gets food on it, then it becomes a smellable and needs to be bear-bagged.

Otherwise, I would change into sleep clothes in my tent, the main purpose of which is to keep your sleep system from getting dirty. I just left my dirty clothes in a pile in the corner of my tent. If they’re not covered in food, then no reason they can’t be in your tent.

I suggest using Wilderness Wipes or similar to “bathe” before getting into your sleep clothes. If you’re not used to the arid West, you’ll soon discover that everything gets quite dusty.

We chose to follow the spirit of the rule rather than have our Scouts walking around camp every evening their sleeping clothes.  With our crew, we had them limit the gear in tents to sleeping bag, pad, pillow, sleeping clothes and a light source.  As long as their hiking clothes were not covered in food, we had them keep their hiking clothes in their tent so they could change before and after sleep in privacy.

The reality is…if you have Scouts walking around camp in their sleeping clothes, the sleeping clothes will end up dirty and covered in food.  Which defeats the purpose of sleeping clothes.

One other note — bring a big garbage bag to put over your pack at night.  Like most of you, I long ago ditched a pack cover for a pack liner bag.  But, a big plastic bag will help keep your whole pack dry if it rains overnight.

Bibs?  That way they won’t spill food on their clothes….just kidding

Paul wrote:
Ha! This sounds like a rule written by someone who’s never actually tried to do it…
+1

If your scouts have opaque ponchos, they can be worn for some privacy while changing outside the tent and would also provide the rain and wind protection for the 50 foot walk (assuming they don’t wear them while cooking/eating).  Sometimes my poncho serves as my only clothing while washing the rest of my clothing–private enough for the back country.

Tim B

Philmont’s intent is for you not to sleep in any clothing that may have a food odor (bear bate) and to keep your sleeping bag as clean as practical over a 10-day experience under difficult circumstances.

Philmont expects you to change into your sleep clothes (stored in stuff sack) in your tent just before climbing into your sleeping bag. Place your dirty sweaty hiking clothes in the stuff sack (as long as you haven’t spilled food on them) as human scent does not attract bears (pg. 45). A stuff sack full of clothes makes a decent pillow. In the morning reverse the process.

I do not find any rules that contradict this procedure and during 8 treks have never had a Ranger object or suggest otherwise.

If you have spilled food on your clothes wash them out immediately in your backcountry washing machine (2-gallon freezer-grade plastic bag) and put them back on to air dry. You should be doing this as often as possible (every couple of days) any way, “A Scout is Clean”.

We hang our packs off the ground (covered with its rain cover) to avoid mini-bears chewing sweat (salt) soaked straps and hip belts. We use Philmont’s method of surrounding the tree with short sticks under the hanging cord (or strap) to avoid damaging the tree’s bark (same as used for bear bag ropes).

“Philmont should be enjoyed, not endured.” Moonshine

@ James

Re: Wilderness Wipes.  I have no experience with this product but they sound like a smellable and would therefore have to go in the oops bag, yes?

@ Roger

At Philmont a lot of the rules IMO don’t make any sense but seem based on tradition and convention.  Some of the bear safety rules seem to assume that you are safer sleeping in a tent than sleeping under a tarp.

Some of the bear safety rules seem to assume that you are safer sleeping in a tent than sleeping under a tarp.
Do the bears know this?

Or is it that little Boy Scouts feel safer if they are in an enclosed space and can’t see the bear’s legs under the edge of the tarp? Just wondering.

Cheers

I have had way more animals go after my pee spot than my food. Salt is a precious commodity in the back country.

If there are signs around I might hang some dirty socks on the outside of the food hang bag. Also, I don’t bring really smelly food into bear country. Mainly vegan or freeze dried stuff.

I feel safer inside a tent if there is something moving around at night.

When I turn on a light the tent looks other-worldly from the outside. Maybe strange enough to bother an animal.

Sometimes I keep a pot and stone near the tent to make noise.

A friend told me how to scare a bear. They got to try making all kinds of racket to no avail. Finally someone clapped their hands once really loud, Sounded like a gunshot. The bear took off at a run.

Bruce T

We carry “Dehydrated Wet Ones”, otherwise knowns as paper towels. Take a sheet of paper towel for each day you’ll be on the trail, cut them into quarters and kept in a one-quarter freezer-grade plastic bag. A quarter sheet with a little water from your bottle becomes a scentless wet wipe and can be disposed of in a latrine with your TP.

Roger C

Philmont’s tent rule (“all crew members are required to sleep in a tent” with a sewn-in floor pg.13) is to keep snakes and mini-bears away from sleepers and to not have food odors that may attract bears.

Philmont makes their rules based on past experiences to prevent further problems.

@ Roger I dont really know. I have a couple of theories though.

In the Stephen Herroro book on bear attacks (Bear Attacks: Their Causes and Avoidance, Revised edition, 2002) he speculates on page 48 that the absence of a tent might have contributed to Brown Bear (Grizzly bear) attack in Glacier Park in the late 1960s by bears that had been habituated to human food by visiting open garbage dumps.

But his book also explains that different Black Bears (the species at Philmont and in California) exhibit very different behavior. So I suspect someone at Philmont might have taken the Herroro anecdote out of context and applied it to create a safety rule about an entirely different species of bear, not to mention ignored the scientific axiom that correlation is not causation.

My other theory for the possible origin of the Philmont policy goes like this.  Back in the day before the invention of lightweight backpacking tents, Scouts were camping under tarps. And since it rains a lot in summer in the Rockies where Philmont is located, the Scouts were also cooking their dinners under the tarps and then proceeding to sleep under them.  The Philmont bears, already most likely habituated to human food, then would come foraging directly around sleeping Scouts every now and then.  The evidence for this hypothesis is the Philmont literature refers to the tarps that are handed out as standard equipment as “dining tarps.”

Keep in mind that Philmont says all adhesives must go in the bear bags, including any tape.

The tents they hand out are seam sealed with tape.

So not everything makes sense.

All very interesting. Thank you all.
Cheers

All tent seams are (or should be) sealed with seam sealer whether on tape or by liquid in dabber bottle.

The tapes Philmont is talking about needing to be Bear Bagged are of the sticky adhesive type like band-aid or duct tape. Duct tape has a rather strong distinctive smell.

Brad P,

Where does it say, “Philmont says all adhesives must go in the bear bags”? I could not find it in their 2021 Guidebook to Adventure.

I would assume this site is for those planning to go to Philmont to ask questions and advice from those that have been before.

Some contributors appear to have not been, nor intend to go, to Philmont. If they have not completed a 12-day trek, how can they objectively answer questions about Philmont, its means and objectives if they have no firsthand knowledge of?

It seems as if some of those same contributors are offering any excuse to circumvent Philmont’s purposes and rules. Why do they intrude?

As I have said before, Philmont is trying to make this challenging experience safe for its youth from many years’ experience dealing with boys and bears, while still CYA from lawsuits.

I have completed 8 12-day treks and an Autumn Adventure with many other very experienced adult Advisors. So, we collectively have many many years’ shared experience. We find it easiest to follow and use Philmont’s “rules” and techniques. You should too.

“Philmont should be enjoyed, not endured.” Moonshine

@ David

It is an open forum and everyone is welcome to offer an opinion as long as they abide by the rules and guidelines of the site.  Just like any other question in any other forum, folks sometimes go very orthogonal to the original post.

I have been at Philmont and led many backpacking and snow camping outings in the BSA, as well as in the Sierra Club.  There are many BPLers with far greater experience than my own who contribute that might not have much Scouting experience but might offer worthwhile points of view.

Note too that some folks just see the question and offer an answer without seeing that this is the Philmont forum. No big deal in my mind. I do not see it as an intrusion.  And I welcome people who offer differing opinions.

I am not sure which specific comment you are objecting to but I agree that with if you are an adult leader planning on going to Philmont, you are explicitly agreeing to follow Philmont’s rules and guidelines, even if you personally do not agree with them. The adult leader needs to set the example and follow the rules.

For example, I do not believe tents are safer than tarps (or sleeping under the stars) or that dedicated sleeping clothes make much difference in bear country but I had all my Scouts sleep in tents and use dedicated sleeping clothes.  When camping in bear country in the Sierra Nevada, my main safety practices are cooking 100 meters or more from my sleeping location and carrying a hard sided canister for my food. Neither of which are Philmont practices.

Yours in Scouting

Where does it say, “Philmont says all adhesives must go in the bear bags”? I could not find it in their 2021 Guidebook to Adventure.

Our ranger told us that in 2019.

Brad P

You forgot the seam sealer tapes used in your rain gear, air mattress, footwear waterproof liners, stuff sacks, dry bags, etc. Or are you just nitpicking?

I don’t think those tapes reach the threshold of a smellable. Apparently, those type tapes’ one-time or heat-set adhesives don’t attract bears, or the bears are tired of eating tents and boots.

Sticky adhesive and duct tapes have distinctive odors that apparently have and do attract bears and mini bears.

“Philmont should be enjoyed, not endured.” Moonshine

It’s their place and their rules. We set the proper example and work with them.

I suspect there hasn’t been much study on the different adhesives and their bear attracting qualities. Lots of people wrap some duct tape around their trekking poles as convenient, light storage. They then use those poles as shelter support or store them in the tent vestibule.

I wonder how many times this has actually attracted bears to the tent. I don’t know the answer, but lots of people do it.

I’ll repeat, it’s their place, they set the rules.

@Brad,

There is lots of anecdotal evidence about what Black Bears (not Grizzlies) that are habituated to human food will go for that looks or smells like it could be food.  At the Whitney Portal trailhead in Eastern California there is a display near the bear lockers showing all the things bears have taken out of cars and tried to eat: cans of Raid insecticide, bottles of motor oil, cans of insect repellent, first aid kits, bottles of sun block, cans of propane, and the list goes on.

Back in college, the first time I went Yosemite to go backpacking, I made the mistake of leaving the back of my van open for a few minutes right around dusk.  The Tuolumne Meadows bear arrived when I was not looking and very quickly found the gorp, hot cocoa, and the chocolate power bars….

Of course a Black Bear not habituated to human food and humans will be more wary of humans and their stuff.