Shelters and Tarps in 10D silnylon?

[Sam Farrington]

Chris K, re: “Is the Dutch Xenon sil/sil?”

The Description on the product page  for Xenon Sil 1.1 says only “Coating Siliconized,”

But noted the following in the Q & A section in the product page:

“Question
“Is the coating 100% silicone or is it a sil/Pu coating?
“One person found this helpful Dave Gantz (verified owner) – February 15, 2022

“Silicone.”

You can also call Dutchware Gear at (717) 947-7849.  I’ve found that to be more helpful than sending an email.

[Jon Solomon]

Jon:  The Extrem Textil site shows their 30D silpoly weight as 45 gsm (grams per square meter).  The multiplier to convert gsm to ounces per square yard is .0295, showing an equivalent weight in ounces per sq. yard of 1.3275.

Hey Sam, yeah I know. The slightly heavier weight I quoted above is a measured weight listed by Xavier over at Tipik Tentes. Xavier tests the fabrics himself and has posted here on BPL occasionally. Here’s the link to that page on his site in English: https://tipik-tentes.fr/materiaux?_route_=materiaux .

I have a long day at work today and have to run out early. I’ll write you in the evening my time to thank you for your generosity.

[Jon Solomon]

So I’m back from work. That was a long day. Sam, I learned something that really surprised me. According to Xavier’s tests, the weight of the 30D diamond cordura silnylon from ExtremTextil weighs only 1g more per square meter than the 30D silpoly they sell. This is actual measured weight not claimed weight. And get this, the HH is pretty much the same. While there is a difference in tear strength, both are already at such a high level that it probably doesn’t matter in the real world. The 30D silnylon tests at 9 – 10 DaN against the 30D silpoly that tests at 7 – 8 DaN.  That silpoly even comes in a light sand color. But it is heavier than your target goal. Still, it’s just such an awesome fabric and, most important, it is available to the DIY maker.

[Chris K]

Sam – nice, thanks. Maybe the fabric info was updated, or my memory needs revision, but I remember at one point there being two questions in that discussion with different answers: one said sil, the other said sil/PU.

In any event, this could be the only sil/silpoly available in the U.S.?

(Thread drift apologies)

[Sam Farrington]

Jon, there seems to be unanimity about the quality of the ET 30D silpoly; but it is of course heavier than than 10D offerings noted in your OP.  So I’m still undecided about what to use for the canopy on a tent project.  Although it will be a polyester, if only because the tent design does not work with silnylon due to its expansion in damp weather.  Another design, like Roger Caffin’s silnylon tunnels, might work fine because shockcord is used to keep the silnylon canopy under tension.  Ditto, for my modified Goondie, that places the door zip off to the side so the front of the vestibule can be tensioned by shockcord even when the door is open.  The Goondie wrinkles with heavy rain, but not enough to flap:

The shockcord to the front stake is not visible in the photo, but it’s there.  This was just after a heavy all night rain.  The mod extension of the floor into the rear vestibule provided dry space for the two shelties, one of whom is in the tent.  At that time, the tent was made of PU coated nylon, and might do better with a more flexible silcoat of the type that Roger uses.

Chris K, AFAIK Ripstop by the Roll is still selling its 1.1 silpoly, and the coating contains some polyurethane or polyether.  It was tested by Stephen Seeber with a higher HH than the Dutchware 1.1 silpoly.  But again, at 1.24 oz/sq/yd, the RBTR silpoly is quite a bit heavier than the 10D fabrics in this thread.  RBTR’s lighter “membrane” silpoly has provided less waterproofness and strength than I look for; but others have reported better experiences, as was noted in Stephen Seeber’s tests on BPL of membrane silpoly furnished by me and another poster.

[Sam Farrington]

Noted that stoneglacier.com has some offerings in silcoated 10D nylon, including a flat and a tapered tarp.  Did not see these earlier on the thread, but may have missed them.

[baja bob]

I think those stone glacier tents are rebranded sling fins

[baja bob]

I know you are shooting for 10d but there is a company out of Idaho making mid tents from 20d sil/sil silpoly.  Argali outdoors. Tents are made offshore I believe.

[Jon Solomon]

Helleren Extreme. A 4m x 3m (approx 13′ x 10′) tarp made with 10D 2000mm HH silnylon by Nortent.

Weighs 290g alone and comes in gold and greenish grey, plus pegs and lines.

Ridge seam design. With mini beaks at the ends and flare outs on the sides.

https://www.nortent.com/shop/11-tarps/54-nortent-helleren-extreme/

[Monte Masterson]

Being a Norwegian company you can bet that Nortent’s tarp material is probably of the highest quality. They extoll the virtues of silnylon and don’t appear as if they’ll be jumping on the silpoly bandwagon anytime soon. Nortent makes a very good case for why nylon sil/sil is best. https://www.nortent.com/tent-fabrics/

I’m tempted to buy a Helleren and simply crop it down to 250 cm X 300 cm. It’s a bit too big for me.

Nortent provides even more reasons why sil/sil nylon is such a great choice. They, like me obviously think that retightening a silnylon tent/tarp is not a huge deal. https://www.nortent.com/silnylon-its-alive/

[Jon Solomon]

I was thinking about you, Monte, when I posted this. Glad that you saw it early. I missed the “silnylon is alive” page. Love it!

[Josh J]

I haven’t gotten to use my splitwing yet otherwise I would comment but I haven’t seen them offer a strict tarp only.

[Arek]

SlingFin has just released their new flat tarp in 10D NY66 ripstop sil/sil fabric, available for pre-order:

https://www.slingfin.com/products/nft

[Monte Masterson]

I like the way Slingfin did cat cuts just on the perimeter to (in theory) provide more versatility for tarp options other than A frame. Of course a cut cut ridgeline really doesn’t.

9.5′ X 10′ is bigger than what I prefer but I also like the 2 reinforced tieouts on the seam and 4 on the panels. Allows for a lot more pitches. And I see Slingfin is using 20D as reinforcement material instead of the 30D they use on the Splitwing. Probably not for weight so much as it is to give a more similar stretch to the 10D silnylon, therefore not as apt to cause a tear.

I wish Slingfin would add some more stealthy color options though. The bright visible material is a deal breaker for many potential buyers.

Glad to see more 10D sil/sil nylons coming onto the market. Just a speculation but I’ll bet the much lighter 10D silnylon 6.6’s that Slingfin, Nordisk and Nortent uses are as strong or stronger than many of the much heavier 20D silpolys which many shelters are made of (with sil PU/PE).

[Jon Solomon]

I like the design, too. The tongue-in-cheek name is pretty funny as well.

At 349g without lines or stakes, some might think that it’s a tad bit heavy for 1P use. It’s interesting to compare it to the Nortent Helleren, which also uses a 10D silnylon. At 13.1’x 9.8′, the Helleren is roughly 30% larger than the NFT’s 10’x 9.5′ (*I’m using rectangular measurements that don’t account for cat cuts and beaks etc), yet it weighs less at 290g. Part of the difference could be explained by the extra hooks and reinforcement loops used by the NFT, though the Helleren includes some internal webbing loops and has hefty rubber guyline attachment point reinforcements. Hence, I suspect that the real difference lies in the weights of the two fabrics. Although they are both “10D silnylon,” there would seem to be a significant difference in the weight of the fabrics.

 

 

[Monte Masterson]

The NFT’s tarp only weight comes out to 1.15 oz per square yard but that includes reinforcements. Seems way heavy for a 10D fabric. Maybe I’m missing something, however I like the NFT’s design more and more as I look at it. Appears as if Slingfin just went around the perimeter with the same 20D silnylon they use as reinforcements and sewed it on like you would a bias tape. Makes things way easier than doing a double fold and allows for 4 more non reinforced tieouts on the long sides.

Nortent’s 10D sil/sil is much lighter though. When you account for the huge curves on each side of the Helleren the weight comes out to around 0.8 oz per sq yd. That sounds too light, more like a 7D silnylon. Don’t care for the Helleren’s design but if it was a stealthy green color like Nordisk has with their 10D silnylons I’d buy one just to harvest the material and then make a smaller version of the Splitwing.

[baja bob]

Looks like the NFT is the same tarp as the Stone Glacier Sky Tarp 10.  https://www.stoneglacier.com/collections/tents/products/skytarp-10

The setup video on the website states the tarp is 9’8” x 9’4”.

Available now for $30 less.

[Jon Solomon]

but if it was a stealthy green color like Nordisk has with their 10D silnylons I’d buy one just to harvest the material

In the photos on their website, that grey ends up looking stealthy enough, too, no?

Available now for $30 less

Ah, the Orange Premium.

 

[Sam Farrington]

Jon;  So have kicked it around, and still choose silpoly for my purpose; that is, building an all weather solo tent.  By all weather I mean a tent with a bathtub floor, a free standing flexible pole framework, and an outer canopy that stays rigid over the framework.  Only in this way will the pole framework and canopy reinforce each other to keep the tent solidly taut in all weather.

Unfortunately, nylon, including silnylon, does not do this in stormy weather.  It expands, so does not interact with a framework to create a tight and stable structure.  It may be different with pegged out tarps; but unfortunately, pegged tarps are no match for really severe storms.  Saying that it is no big deal to retighten the attachments to the pegs does not give me an ounce of comfort in the deluges that I’ve encountered.  Sure, most of the time weather is not so awful; but the whole concept of backpacking IMO is to be ready for the worst, because in many places like Colorado, hikes lasting more than a few days greatly increase the odds of encountering foul weather that can smash tarps and many tents flat, or even blow them away.

With that in mind, I tested some of the Sling Fin 10D silnylon in horrid weather outside my walkout basement in a couple days of freezing rain.  True to form, the nylon expanded.  The fabric was tightened again and left in the embroidery loop, and only expanded even further.  A prototype canopy of 30D silnylon was also twice tested last year in the same location in similar weather.  It was solid as a rock inside the basement, but outside the walkout, even with a deck overhead, could easily be pushed over, and out in the open could have been blown flat.

So guess it is all about how much protection you want from a shelter.  For me the answer is enough to keep me safe and dry.

By the way, I sent the 10D tarp to Taiwan by priority mail, and will check USPS with the tracking code and let you know.  I had some surgery this week, and have been under the weather, so to speak.

[Jon Solomon]

Sam, the Hilleberg Soulo that I have doesn’t sag when wet. The Unna I had before that didn’t either, and neither did the Akto before that.

There may be a small niggle in the way that you conduct your fabric tests. One should never continually tighten and retighten silnylon. Tightening can be can taken too far, impairing the performance of the fabric. It is plastic, after all. With DCF, the effects of overtightening are dramatic and instantly noticeable in terms of permanent deformation. But I suspect that overtightening is a problem with both nylons and polyesters, as well, and it causes similar, though less noticeable, deformation.

Li-jen received the package probably a week ago. He’s undoubtedly preparing a small gift to send to you in return as a sign of gratitude. Perhaps he’s already sent it. He sounded pretty psyched when he received it and I think was planning to take it out for spin in the mountains real soon (perhaps already).

I hope that your recovery is swift and that you’re back on the trail again soon!

[Sam Farrington]

Hi Jon,

The only reason I retightened the 10D fabric was in response to a post in an earlier thread stating that retightening of a silnylon tent resolved the sag issue;  so just thought it should be addressed.

The resistance to expansion of the Hilleberg shelters you mentioned sounds interesting.  Looked at them, and the Kerlon fabric 1000 is spec’d at 2 oz/sq/yd, which is way more than I’m looking for.  With your interest in 10D nylon, you may also be looking for lighter woven fabrics vs. DCF.  I have some Icarex polyester from a German company, and am toying with a thin coating of Permatex silicone windshield sealant of the type that was at one time in vogue on BPL for seam sealing.  May eventually come full circle back to the Sling Fin fabric; but am intrigued by polyester weaves that maintain bias stretch, but do not expand out of shape in foul weather.  Dutchware is always working on its fabrics, and the polyester Xenon 1.1 is now spec’d at 1.10 oz/sq/yd at a higher HH.  I have some of the older stuff in a moss green, which they have discontinued, reason unknown.  A dark colored or blaze orange tent does not do it for me.  Buying light silpoly tarps, only to disassemble them, can also get pretty expensive after a while, especially when the fabric turns out to be leaky, and thus pretty much useless.  The problem is that I have to know how the fabric will perform before doing the lengthy work of making it into a tent.  Time marches on.

[Jon Solomon]

Cool, I get it now.

the Kerlon fabric 1000 is spec’d at 2 oz/sq/yd

Where’d you see that? Here’s a screen cap from Hilleberg’s materials page:

That 1.18 osy / 40gsm weight for their triple coated, 5000mm HH 20D is pretty good. The 20D silnylon that Ron was using until just recently was 1.4 osy / 47 gsm and 3000mm HH.

The 20D silnylon offered by ExtremTextil offers a 10% lighter alternative, however, at 1.06 osy /36 gsm, but with only half the advertised tear strength and 2000mm HH.

I will have to try some of Dutch’s 1.1 osy/ 37.37 gsm 400mm HH Xenon silpoly. I’d be okay with the Coyote Brown or the Forest Green.

 

[Jon Solomon]

I will have to try some of Dutch’s 1.1 osy/ 37.37 gsm 400mm HH Xenon silpoly. I’d be okay with the Coyote Brown or the Forest Green.

Taking a closer look at the specs for Dutchware’s 1.1 Xenon silpoly, I just realized that the tear strength figures are in lbs not kgs. 4.9 lbs / 2.2 kgs tear strength on the warp when new is I think unacceptably low, unless I’m missing something.

[Sam Farrington]

Jon; Thanks for the heads up about the Xenon 1.1 tear strength when new.  The weights spec’d for the Xenon silpoly have varied in the past from 1.12 to 1.17 oz/sq/yd.  But with the spec of 4000 mm HH, and 1.0 oz/sq/yd, thought they had made a major improvement.  Not so sure now.

Was going to use some of the prior Xenon 1.1 because it came in moss green, which is a medium shade.  The colors you mentioned are darker.  And their note, “*All Specs are estimates and may vary from color to color and batch to batch.” cannot be ignored.  Still, did obtain a yard of the current Xenon sil 1.1 in blaze orange to check it for weight and waterproofness.

After pondering further, the Extrem Textil silpoly, recommended by Monte and others, will add less than 2 oz to my solo all weather tent design.  Have ordered a number of times from ET, and never been disappointed.    Would have liked to build a spacious solo tent competitive  with DCF, around 20 oz; but 2 oz is a small price to pay for something I think would be reliable in a severe storm, which is the primary reason for lugging a tent.  The tear and tensile strengths are listed on the ET product page.

And there are other ways to drop weight while keeping a tent all weather; such as keeping the doors limited to the front vestibule while  eliminating zippers in the back; and using only a partial inner tent that protects head and feet; and there are some other ideas.

I noted that the green color on the ET silpoly is a medium shade.  You might want to take a look at it, along with the strength specs. Would be interested in your thoughts.

[Jon Solomon]

Maybe the Xenon silpoly is still pretty good. The tear strength does seem quite low to me but then again isn’t that what John at Borah Gear is using for his tarps? Lotsa people seem to like them, so…

As for the 30D silpoly sold by ET, I have been singing the praises of it high and low. I have an octagonal mid made from that material and have posted about it here. Only have good things to say about it. The coating has an awesome feel and the fabric is very strong and stiff. I love the color called dark green. You might prefer sand if you want something lighter. I have a sample and think it looks quite organic and would certainly let in a lot of light with a slight golden glow.

The fabric itself is barely heavier than then new 20D silpoly MLD is using that has so many people excited. Once again, the tested weight is slightly higher than the advertised weight. Advertised is 45 gsm/1.33 osy while the tested weight is 49 gsm/1.45 osy. Of course, I dream of it being closer to 35 gsm/1.03 osy, but that may take a few more years.

2-3 ounces may seem like a lot but like you can find somewhere else to cut the weight. I think it would be the perfect fabric choice for your modded Goondie.

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