Separate sleeping clothes in Yellowstone?

Correction to first post:

The page where this appears https://www.nps.gov/yell/planyourvisit/campinginbearcountry.htm doesn’t explicitly state that this is a requirement backed by a fine or anything, but it is in the “do” list.

Somehow, at least on my computer screen, the last part of the url and the word “doesn’t” are truncated by a risqué swimwear ad.

That’s a rule at Philmont, but I think your regular clothes only go up in the bear bag if you spilled food on them.  They otherwise go in your pack, which is kept away from your tent.

Thanks.  Especially since your experience is from Philmont, since ours is also a youth trip.  We need to minimize the youth loads, but also with youth we avoid unnecessary risks.  So we are talking about, at least, an extra set of long underwear to use as sleeping clothes.  My usual LW backpacking practice often has me sleeping in my warm jacket and fleece hat has well, and maybe everything else I’ve got including windshirt and rain suit if it gets cold enough.  But if it’s that cold then the aforementioned outerwear has probably been worn during the cooking process as well.  So if sleeping clothes are to be limited to a second set of long underwear, maybe we need to look at generally warmer/heavier sleeping bags too.  This is a late July trip so it might not even be that cold at all but in the mountains it could get cold anytime of the year, and we’ve certainly run into cold in Colorado in the summer.

Scouts and other youth often want to sleep in the clothes they were wearing that day.  Changing to clean sleeping clothes should be required.  It’s good for you and your sleeping bag.

At Philmont, do they really then take their clothes to their packs or do they get stuffed in the corner of the tent to be put on in the morning?

I would take very seriously the suggestions from the NPS about NOT sleeping in clothing that has any kind of food odor.  Black bears are bad enough, but grizzlies are the ultimate predator, and you do NOT want cooking or food odors on anything in your tent or sleeping bag.  You do not want to take any chances.  It’s Russian roulette:  you can do everything wrong and maybe never have an issue, or you can do everything right and have a griz in camp.  They are unpredictable, smart, and unfortunately maybe becoming a bit more used to humans in the greater Yellowstone ecosystem.

I have done some backcountry camping in the Park, and we have had a couple of curious bears a couple of times:  one a black bear that was curious about a hanging water bag (no food odors there), and one a griz that nosed around a food storage locker.  That was a scary one because the physical campsite wasn’t big enough for the recommended distance between tents/kitchen/food storage.  None of us slept that night, and you can bet we made sure we had no food odors or scented items in the tents.  I slept with a death grip on my bear spray.

It might seem like a pain to have separate sleeping clothes, but you just don’t take chances with grizzlies.  The consequences could be disastrous for your party and potentially also for a bear.  You will sleep better…maybe!  I would recommend taking all the NPS recommendations very seriously.

I would not call grizzlies the “ultimate predator,” because they actually eat plenty of plants too. There are definitely more efficient predators out there. The phrase just seems a bit overly sensational. I also take exception to thinking of black bears as “bad enough,” implying that grizzlies are really bad! You are choosing to camp in their home, after all. There’s no requirement for anyone to camp there. Bears are not bad.

However, following instructions from the park rangers seems like a good idea wherever you visit. Cooking less stinky food, putting your stuff in the proper places, and changing clothes are all pretty easy steps to take. Kids do tend to forget items in pockets, so if the clothes aren’t even in the tent, that’s the best practice. (Adults forget too, guilty.)

Be cautious of course, but not terrified.

Plan a few shakedown campouts before you go and get the routine down, especially for the young people in your group.  If you are camping close to a parking area, people will fill the bear boxes and leave no room for others, so plan now to take just what you need.

Have a great time, YNP is amazing when you get a mile or two down the trail.

@ Mina

Are you base camping or changing campsites every nigh? When on the move in the Sierra Nevada I like to cook dinner about 1 mile or more from my camping destination to insure that food and cooking smells are not near my tent.

@ Bob

“At Philmont, do they really then take their clothes to their packs or do they get stuffed in the corner of the tent to be put on in the morning?”

This is the goal and the Philmont policy. With my crew, I never conducted an audit but saw many of my Scouts running in the morning in their base layers to the dining tarp to grab their packs and bring them back to their tents so they could get dressed.

Thanks to all for the additional insights.  Yes I do take what the Park says seriously.  I am trying to work through in my mind the exact procedures for what they are asking.  It sounds like daytime/cooking/eating clothes need to be kept away from tents and sleep systems entirely.  So this would mean a separate “changing area” to be designated, say, halfway between the cooking/food storage area and the tent area? I am visualizing an imaginary line of sorts, where sleep and shelter systems come out of the pack in one direction and packs/day clothes/food things go in the other direction.  Bedtime changing area is at that line.   Not perfect since daytime clothes would need to be worn during tent setup, and of course everything occupies or contacts the same pack during the hiking day.

Should people plan on having pee bottles for overnight to avoid an individual having to go outside their tent alone in the night?  Does it matter if the shelter is a tarp or an enclosed tent?  Some of our participants like to backpack with tarps.

We had one of our series of planning meetings yesterday and it looks like our on-trail group may be at or near the Park maximum of 12 people.  We discussed the point of keeping the group hiking together and not getting strung out on the trail.

Comments/additional suggestions?

@Bruce.  For the backpacking days the group will be moving along to a new camp every day.  The camps are designated by the Permit.  We don’t know what the Permit will be yet because they don’t start processing applications until April 1.  I expect that with a larger group size including youth (14-19 age range plus 4 older adults) it would be pretty unwieldly to do supper/breakfast in different locations than camp, but we could consider it.  It is my understanding that the designated camps already have a food area and a separated tent area.

Mina, I can’t offer much advice on the clothing issues, other than NOT spilling food on your clothes. After over 30 nights backpacking YNP over the years, I’ve never had issues like that, and I always took off my outer layers (shirt, pants, insulation, and shell/wind shirt), folded them up and stashed them in the nooks and crannies of my tent. Just once did a critter mess with me, and it was a skunk that smelled a couple of Altoids in the pants pocket. But that might have been in Glacier Park, and not YNP.

As for temperatures in YNP, it can often get down to just below freezing (or snow on the 4th of July), but that usually happens in August above 7500′ elevation.

I should also add that you may have a campfire nearly everywhere in GNP. Notable exceptions include those along Shoshone Lake, and some along the Bechler River route. There are likely a few others, but I can’t recall any right now.

As for the campsites themselves, yes, they do all have a bear pole near what you would likely use for a food prep area. But I don’t recall there ever being a designated tent area. You just set up your shelter(s) a reasonable distance from the bear pole.

In Glacier, they have 2-6 separate established tent sites, and a common food prep area with either a pole or a locker. YNP is different, in that when you score a campsite, your group will be the only party staying there. For solo hikers like me, that can be incredible, or sometimes a bit unnerving, depending on the circumstances. I love the feeling of near-total solitude, but not so much when I hear a large critter roaming nearby in the dark (is that a bison, or a moose, or a griz…?). Knowing that there is no one else around to help you if you have an accident, or in the event of an animal attack – to me, that’s the unique allure of hiking in YNP. But you won’t have that problem, since you’ll have plenty of teen aged girls to squeal and scream, which will thwart any poor deer that is trying to eat a sweat-drenched T-shirt that is drying on a bush.

Mina, when you learn what campsites you will have, please post it on this thread.

Are you using odor-proof bags? For food? Maybe other items?

“If you were going backpacking in Yellowstone NP, would you bring a separate set of clothing for when you are in your tent and an extra sack to hang your clothes that you cooked in?”

Having lived and camped and hiked in grizzly bear country in Yellowstone, and Glacier, and Alaska, for thousands of nights, and having never had a separate set of clothes for sleeping, the answer for me would be a resounding “no.” I don’t know of anyone who has separate sleeping clothes for bear avoidance.

There must be millions of people sleeping in their cooking clothes in bear country every year. Seems to me that if a bear can smell cooking odors on my clothes, it can certainly smell the stronger odors of my dinner and toothpaste on my warm breath.

Out of what must be hundreds of millions of camping nights, I think all the people that have been killed in their tents by bears in recorded HISTORY in North America is something like 9 or 10, as many people as die in the U.S. alone in two minutes.

Personally, what I would focus on in Yellowstone would be not surprising a bear, not running from a bear, and storing my food properly as required by the NPS. Then I would not worry, at all.

Carrying bear spray handy should make you feel even better. Have fun!

I am learning a lot from all your experience and insights.  Clearly different approaches.  Keeps it interesting.  Yes we can bring OP bags.  I am currently reading up on bears and bear behavior to get a better feel for the level of risk.  I figure the Park is aiming their requirements to people with a low to moderate level of backcountry experience.  (I would put our group at moderate.)  You all are right that teenagers tend to create a higher level of commotion which can be a disadvantage for wildlife viewing but probably safer in avoiding encounters alarming to the animals.  At Sunday’s planning meeting the kids worked out first-choice permit request involving the southeast corner of the park, about 50 miles over 6 nights, and a second-choice permit request involving the southwest corner of the park.  We have a couple of non-backpacking parents to base-camp and shuttle.

You are right it is a good idea to practice clothing and food management ahead of time.  We have additional planning meetings that will give opportunities.

@Buck Nelson, it is especially encouraging to get to learn from someone with so much experience.  Sometimes it is hard to judge the full meaning of warnings.  We will figure out procedures for following the rules given, and then try to be as open to the experience as possible.  We do understand that in this day and age we are privileged to be able to undertake a trip like this at all.

@Gary Dunckel, sure, good idea, I’ll definitely post the route when we get our permit.  Thanks for the suggestion!

In my personal backpacking I tend not to worry much about lots of things that “popular wisdom” says I should be freaking out about.  I’ve learned I don’t need to carry so much “just in case” gear.  I do follow precautions such as bringing the Bearikades to all bear country even when not required, and otherwise following jurisdiction requests.  I am not much afraid of animals being out there and consider it a treat to see or hear one.  But with kids we all want to pay extra super duper attention to thinking everything through and having a safe plan while still getting them out into the wild areas.

Mina, I would suggest that you pick up a copy of Stephen Herrero’s excellent book, Bear Attacks – Their Causes and Avoidance. He is likely the most knowledgeable expert on griz (and also black bears). He discusses most everything about griz behavior and ‘psychology’, and how to act when you are confronted by one. It’s a great read on the topic, very informative.

So it sounds like you are trying for the lollipop loop on the Thorofare and also the Bechler River hike. Either would be the trip of a lifetime. I hope you can get them both, then you’ll have to anguish over which one to pick. Whichever you choose, we will absolutely demand a post-trip report!

@Gary Dunckel, Yes, I have the Herrero book although it has been many years since I purchased and read it.  That’s one of the books on my list to re-read now.  Also I just got In the Company of Wild Bears by Howard Smith from the library, to read now for the first time.  Thanks!

You can keep your rain gear in your tent if it has no food odors.  That can be worn for midnight pee breaks and going to get your pack with clothes in it.  Then change in your tent if you’re in a group.

It is encouraging to see so that so many folks have camped in grizzly country with no incidents.  I think my perception is colored by actually having had a grizzly nosing around the metal food cabinet one night at a site on the south shore of Yellowstone Lake.  It did not make for a relaxing evening.

Mina, good on you for doing your due diligence.  When you have other peoples’ kids in your care, it kind of ups the ante.  Have a great trip!

Yeah, Jenny, though we both know that there are plenty of griz in YNP, encountering one is fairly rare. The only signs I’ve seen were (1) a huge footprint along the west shore of L. Shoshone where I camped. It cruised by in the night or very early morning, probably looking for dead washed-up fish; then (2) as I took a rest break at ranger cabin in Slough Creek, I noticed a lot of muddy griz ‘footprints’ on the metal box where they store horse feed. Otherwise, all I’ve ever seen while on the trails/campsites have been skiddish black bears busy doing whatever it is that they do during the day.

Mina, I want to let you know how much I appreciate your enabling those young women to get some solid early backpacking experience. They sound pretty intrepid with a strong will to take things to a higher level. They are lucky to have a mentor such as you. These gifts that you are offering them will last a lifetime.

@ Mina:

Sounds like an awesome trip and the youth are lucky to have you organizing the trip.

I just wanted to offer a somewhat contrarian view to the opinions offered above.

I have been an  an adult leader for dozens of Boy Scout backpacking and “high adventure” trips (as well as many Sierra Club snow camping trips).  It is common practice for leaders, indeed prudent, to sometimes diverge from their own personal backcountry practices regarding health, safety, risk management, etc and adapt and teach the youth the policies of the land management agency, sometimes over and and above the letter and spirit of such policies. Leaders often need to be very mindful of the health. safety, and youth protection policies of the organization). We need to be thinking and practicing compliance even when we think certain aspects of such policies are over-cautious, not based on science, or even nonsensical. This is because we are leading groups, hold certain duties and responsibilities to the parents and therefore  have a higher standard of care (not to mention greater exposure to legal liability).

In respect to youth groups, I think it is worth following the land management agency’s rules because the kids are learning even when we are not teaching. If the adults are not following the published rules, and the youth see that, then we are teaching them you can disregard rules whenever we like.

Furthermore, while I am not a lawyer, I think it is worth pointing out there is the issue of liability, and behavior that might expose yourself to legal action. When I was trained as an AYSO referee, the instructors told us very clearly that, in California at least, there laws limiting the liability of youth organization volunteers in the case of youth injuries as long as you could demonstrate you were following all relevant guidelines and policies.  Reading in between the lines, we were told that 1) AYSO insurance would not cover us and 2) the liability limit would not be applicable if the accident happened when we were outside the pale of the safety rules.

Yes, I know the risk of a bear encounter is near zero but if it is not zero. And if a youth were to be injured by the bear and the parent finds out that the adult leader was not following a published safety protocol, you can hear the rush of feet to the lawyers’ office. I am not saying such litigation is right or appropriate, but it happens.

In conclusion, it seems to me that the small burden of asking the youth to bring dedicated sleeping clothes in order to comply with the land management agency’s safety policy is commensurate with your duty to keep the the youth safe and protect yourself from legal exposure. Food for thought.
Cheers.

@Bruce, I think you are totally right, and probably I shouldn’t even have posed the question in the first place, although it has led to an interesting discussion so that was worth it.  I have seen the “separate sleeping clothes” in backpacking literature before but I can’t think of any time I’ve seen anyone actually doing that or saying they did in practice.  So it kind of registered a disconnect in my mind, and when I started to think through the detailed implications–would it defeat the purpose for people to change clothes in tents?  to stow the 2 sets of clothes alternately in the same pack? etc.–that led me to put the question out here.  Thinking back, though, there’s really not much point in questioning the strategy’s effectiveness if we are going to do it anyway because the Park has asked for it.  Then it becomes a question of how to implement in a way that supports the (presumed) effectiveness and doesn’t undermine it.

I have volunteered to organize, and often to lead, these trips for 17 years now.  There are a couple of articles on BPL and some previous forum questions.  The BPL community has been enormously helpful over these years.

If you watch Dixie (Homemade Wanderlust) on YouTube, she has separate sleep clothes.  She doesn’t mention the food smell part that I caught, but does so to ensure having dry sleep clothes.

If you’re camping where it can get cold at night, that’s a very good idea.  I’m sure others do it, too.

Limiting your liability by following established rules is a wise idea, particularly with youth.

As others have said, we are not going to eliminate all of the odors from our human-ness.  The thoughts from Bruce are worth considering.  And the NPS suggestions are designed to minimize potential conflict between bears and people.  In those instances, it is often the bears that get the short end of the stick if they cause problems or become too habituated.

All that being said, I fish in Yellowstone and strap my rods and net to the outside of my pack.  I am always wondering if I’m just a giant walking trout-scented bear lollipop.