Revelation vs. Enigma? Which one? Cold feet?

I have both the Revelation and Enigma, 20F.  For me the Revelation is warmer for the feet.  The Enigma has a larger footbox, which I thought I would like to give me more room, but because of this my feet always seem colder.  The opening in the Revelation can be drawn tight and I’ve yet to notice any draft coming through. If so, it’d be easy enough to plug with a small piece of cloth.

It’s worth noting that EE just redesigned the footbox of the Enigma, so its round instead of flat. I’m not sure if the volume has changed much, but Ken’s comments might not apply to the current version.

The question of an open-able footbox or not is something I’ve mulled over quite a bit. I really like one that opens when it’s hot out, but have had some issues in the past with cinch footboxes (not with EE quilts) if I’m pushing the temp limit of the bag. You can feel cold here if it’s a crisp night.The Revolution footbox does seem to cinch up at least as well as anything else I’ve seen, but I’d still preemptively cinch a sock/mitt in here on a cold night. The hole does get small enough it that it’s quite close to not existing, so I think doing this would be fairly rare if 10F is a conservative choice for you.

My current verdict is that I like an open-able foot box on a quilt that is for 20F or warmer conditions, but I like a closed footbox for 10F quilts and lower. I reached this conclusion because if I’m often in below freezing conditions, the cinch footbox is more hassle than it’s worth and I never want it open unless it’s >40F outside, whereas for warm conditions, a cinch footbox is rarely a hassle and sometimes really nice to have.

So in your case, I’d vote Enigma but your situation is one the fence for the footbox style, and the Enigma is light, but you’ll be quite pleased with either. Just make sure to get at least one side in the awesome “coyote” color.

My logic is that with the colder-rated quilt you’re not going to want the footbox open anyway and you save a bit of weight with the zipper that somewhat offsets the increased weight of a winter quilt. So I’m with Dan in recommending the Enigma and concur that you won’t go badly wrong either way.

If the low temps are going to be consistently above 40°F I would just get a Rev and call that my warm-weather quilt… no sense carrying a 10deg quilt if it isn’t cold. I have a Rev 50 and find it extremely desirable to be able to open the foot box completely and use it in blanket mode when it’s really warm in the summer. The only caveat with the Rev 50 — and why I would suggest a 40°F-rated one — is that there is so little down in the 50 that it can shift easily and leave spots where there’s no down at all, although the quilt can be shaken to redistribute it.

The new round footbox on the Enigma looks similar to my beloved HG Burrow. I’m glad to see EE make that change. I almost purchased an Enigma during their Black Friday sale but didn’t because of the old footbox design.

A glove, hat or sock seals the hole nicely. I used to have an EE synthetic quilt and kept a scrap of an old Smartwool sock in the hole all of the time.

My $.02 is get a sewn footbox anything other than a summer quilt. I can still hang a leg or two out of my 20° Burrow if I get too warm…

I agree with what Dan and Bob both said…it makes little sense to me to use/carry a 10* quilt at temps that would make me want to open it up into a blanket.  I have a 30* Rev for warmer temps and a 10* Enigma for colder.  I’ve successfully used the Rev in the mid to upper 50s opened up.  I’m quite happy with my choices and if I had to replace them, would select the same.

I have never experienced any problem with my 30* Revelation foot box not closing up tightly, and it kept me warm (with base layers) and draft free down to the low 20s in Yosemite.

So to answer your question…I would suggest the Enigma for a 10* quilt.

For many years, I have used a light (1#11) bag as a quilt. A few years ago, I went to bed at ~40F and quickly found out that the foot box was a bit cold, but the rest was good (I usually wear long johns, socks and on colder nights, my jacket.) While using the Revelation in near the same conditions, my feet were warm. Nope, no plug. It got down to ~20-25F but my feet did not bother waking me up. (I have a hard time with cold feet having diabetes…well age might have a little to do with it;)

I was thinking about it one day as I was hiking, and it occurred to me that this was due to the amount of down near my feet. While I often stuff things down there (fuel canister, damp-not wet cloths, etc,) this was not the case that day. Anyway, it appeared that gathering the quilt actually forced the down into a thicker layer for the first 1 and 2 baffles, at my feet. So, it was warmer on my feet/ankles. I haven’t been out in colder weather since, but this was my initial thought.

I understand that many people don’t like their feet to be tucked into the bottom of a quilt/bag, hence the change to the Enigma. But I also went for a long size, even though I would fit into a regular. (I usually sleep on my side with the quilt over my head with just my eyes and mouth exposed. I am a bit more than half bald.)

I got an all 20d Revelation quilt on sale awhile back for a great price(also, LOVE the fact that they are stitched and made about 30 miles from my house:)). Mine is rated at 20 degrees, but on my most recent trip to the Smoky Mountain/Shenandoa/Linville Gorge area, I think it got down to around 8-10 degrees at night in the mountains. I had mid weight smartwool long undies on, thick wool socks, and my Montbell Alpinlite down jacket, and I was roasting in there, and had NO problems with cold feet. It makes sense that IF you did experience a draft in the footbox, you can stuff something down there, but I am totally confident in mine to keep me warm well below its advertised temp rating.

Full disclosure, I was also using it with my Thermarest Xtherm, which is also super warm. Great combo, for me at least.

Thanks to everyone for the comments.  Just to clarify two points:

1. I will expect most nights to be in the low-30’s to lower 20’s.
2.   My concern with the Revelation drawstring closure footbox was not only related to a physical small hole, but I also suspected that in the center, where the drawstring is cinched, I’d expect there to be less loft.  Even, Enigma is not really that much warmer than the Rev., in these temperatures, it would be rare for me to want to open the footbox unless I’m taking a mid-day nap in bad weather.
3. Would people expect the EE 10 F. quilt or the 20 F. quilt to be closest in warmth to the Mountain Hardwear Phantom 15 with an EN T-Comfort Rating of 26 F and a T-Limit Rating of 15 F ?  FYI. I sleep with a warm baclava and a puffy jacket as a pillow….leaving the puffy to wear when things get unexpectedly bad like with very cold temps or a bag that has lost loft from moisture.

have you used a quilt before?

there is a bit of a learning curve involved compared to a bag which you simply zip up

make sure you have a good down or synth hood … and make sure you get a quilt wide enough so theres no drafts and you can wear a down jacket under if needed

and as said above youll need  top notch pad

;)

1.  I’ve never used a quilt, but the EE system, based on the videos, seems simple enough.
2. I plan on getting the EE Hoodlum to supplement my fleece Balaclava.
3. I use the exped synmat ul7 with a 1/8 inch lawson equipment foam pad under it.

Our Reg/Reg 20* 850 Revelation has been EN rated to have a lower limit of 21*, I can’t remember the comfort limit or extreme limit off the top of my head. Testing was done with a custom down hoodlum made with same loft as the quilt so they could do the test, which requires a hood.

-Tim

Michael, as far as your question 2) above, I would not worry too much about the loft. Worst case, it will be like overstuffing that area, so, you would still gain somewhat in warmth. I think a fair estimate is that the gain is about 50% gained heat per unit/volume. (Within limits, of course.)

My Enigma is a 2015 version, so my original comment for the Enigna would not be applicable since the newer version has the smaller footbox.

One advantage with the Revelation is if it becomes wet it can be unzipped and laid out flat for quicker drying times.  I use the Duplex and I’ve had a couple of times in the Sierras where I’ve gone to bed during a thunder storm with the doors closed to keep the rain out, the storm clears around midnight, the temps drop, condensation forms inside the shelter and droplets fall and make the quilt damp.  I usually sleep through the whole process.  I wake up with a damp quilt, it’s sunny out, and I just put the quilt on a warm rock and it drys out pretty quickly.

tim …

haave you en-tested the quilts with a synthetic hoodlum?

down is singificantly warmer than synth … and the heat loss from the head can be very significant should the head not be properly insulated in comparison to the rest of the body

;)

My concern with the Revelation drawstring closure footbox was not only related to a physical small hole, but I also suspected that in the center, where the drawstring is cinched, I’d expect there to be less loft.

I wouldn’t worry about this. The cinch pulls a lot of down into that area. If anything these is more down at the end of the feet with a cinch because basically the bottom baffle of the quilt that used to be 3-4 feet across has become cinched into a circle about 4″ diameter.

Eric,

i believe we did an early test with a 4oz APEX hoodlum which for an actual human is plenty warm for sleeping down to zero. We switched to down matching the quilt to remove any variables to chase around. I’ve slept to -2* in a thin poly balaclava and wool cap myself. The point for us was to rate the quilt and not have that rely on our hood. We assume everyone is using the right head insulation for them. I wish we could do the test with the head info thrown out so it would just be about the quilt but I’m told that goes against all things science or something.

-Tim

im not sure how much stock I put in this test anyway. It seems the right hand and foot are always cold, but the left are hot. I can’t remember the specifics but it’s something like that. Only one testing center in the world too, so much for comparative testing. Results swing wildly for all the results I’ve seen and in talking to them there is no rhyme or reason. Sounds like companies just test until they like the result and then they post it and move on. I’m not overly impressed honestly.  But our 40* got a 32* lower limit so I’m just moving on ;)

I just visited the forum to ask this exact same question and this appeared on the top. Everybody keep saying there’s no draft in the opening of the revelation, but why is the enigma still warmer for the feet if that’s the case?

I’m still kinda unsure what to go for. My current sleeping bag is rated at 40F and is heavier than the 10F quilt. The 40F is definitely too cold for me for 3 season use and I already have an enormous winter bag (-15F I think). I was planning on using the 20F bag, but after reading Mac’s statistics of PCT thru-hikers it seems that most of them would’ve been happier in a 10F bag: http://www.halfwayanywhere.com/trails/pacific-crest-trail/pct-2016-survey-gear-guide/

Everybody keep saying there’s no draft in the opening of the revelation, but why is the enigma still warmer for the feet if that’s the case?

I’ve never heard that claim.  I think EE themselves say that the enigma is just a simpler and slightly lighter design, but the sizing, warmth and overall performance of the Revelation and Enigma are comparable when of the same material, size, fill amount and type.  In fact, I think EE have gone to great lengths to “standardize” the performance of their products so that one can focus on features rather than being concerned with performance differences between models.

I would expect a LW 20* Rev to perform nearly identically to a LW 20* Enigma.

I think a 20F quilt would be fine for you. As you say, the Revelation is slightly heavier. The Enigma is not as versatile.

20F max low temp is a difficult area for any quilt or bag. At those temps (20-30F at night, 40-50F during the day) you will find a lot of wet trails, a lot of condensation in a tent, and very often slow drying times for your cloths. I think you would be better off with:
1) Stay dry. Keeping your sleeping gear dry with a place to change out of wet/damp clothing.
2) A good tarp rather than an enclosed tent will provide a LOT of ventilation and reduce condensation. A fully enclosed tent will provide 10F of warmth and increase condensation.
3) Perhaps a third pair of socks for when your feet are soaked (Sleeping socks-long and thick, 2 set of hiking socks: one to wear wet, one to wear around camp “damp” in wet shoes(liners removed, fairly dry socks will help to dry out your shoes a bit, too.)
4) Use your pads well. Do not choose odd slopes making you slide off the bottom onto your ground cloth. Set up sideways and use your pack/forest duff to level your sleeping pad. Create a slight dished, level area just under your ground cloth for your pads to stay on.
5) Eat something about 15min before sleeping. A half ounce to an ounce of jerky or other high protein snack, and/or, high fat snack will help keep you warmer.
6) Do around 15-20 sit-ups as you get into bed. This will warm things up quickly, but be careful not to do so many you start sweating.
7) Use a hoodlum, balaclava, and/or your quilt to cover your head, opening only for eyes, nose and mouth. Your body will push heat there, don’t loose it.
8) For the “midnight” pee run, close the quilt over your pads before running off.
9) Wear whatever dry cloths you have, if you need to. Any insulation is better than none. But, be careful of damp cloths. Too much moisture, under the quilt, can degrade the down’s loft.
10) Wake up cold? If everything is in use, then try some more sit-ups, eat a small snack, and curl into a ball.

Hiking with a partner? Cuddle with him/her. Much warmer with two and share the center of the quilts over you both.

OK. Now you have everything on, or, wet and hanging, and you are too tired to do more sit-ups. You are gonna get cold if it gets any colder. Accept it, you do NOT have to like it. As long as you sleep fitfully, you are fine, even if you are not as comfortable as you normally would be. Again, eat something with a lot of fat and protein. (Proteins/fats take a bit longer to digest keeping your digestive tract producing energy/warmth.) In an extreme situation, you can start a fire, usually. Keep it under control.

two tricks to keep the left of yr quilt over time if theres no sun and its damp

• put a fleece or synth over the foot end … this is the area most likely to get condensation and contact the tent
• flip the quilt inside out every night or so … what happens is that the condensation will end up on the outside and it stays damp there, and never dries …. flip it so that the body heat or hawt nalgene will start drying the damp side out

if its damp though and yr using down … i advise getting a quilt thats 10F warmer than what you need to take account degredation … DWR down might help as well

;)

If you expect most nights to be in the low-30’s to lower 20’s as you mentioned, then a 10F quilt rather than a 20F would be my choice. As you mentioned, the Wind Rivers can be cold and windy above treeline. I consider both 20F and 30F quilts to be ideally suited for nights between 20 and 45 degrees on average (typical 3 season Wind’s and mountain West environment). If consistently sleeping toward the lower end of that range (above treeline in the Wind’s), the 10F quilt will provide a lot more sleep comfort for a minimal weight penalty.

As others have noted, a 10F quilt would complement  a warmer 40F summer quilt very well. For prolonged 20F to low 30F temps, I’d also go with the warmer 4 oz apex Hoodlum – I have the lighter Hoodlum that’s fine for 3 season use, but would prefer the 4oz version if sleeping consistently in the 20’s.

As for the footbox, my 2016 size wide Enigma is roomy around the feet, which creates cold spots when the feet change position. On cold nights, I wrap my down vest around my feet and that keeps them warm and comfy. I also modified one of the quilt straps so that both of them now wrap the whole way around the sleeping pad – this seems to reduce drafts as I roll around quite a bit at night.

As James noted, there are lots of ways to increase your sleep comfort. Above treeline, finding a campsite with some kind of wind shelter really helps a lot. I keep a sharp eye out for any kind of wind break to setup the tent behind, such as a boulder or bushes or a small dip in the terrain that’s not in a water path. Also consider a pee bottle to save having to exit the tent at night multiple times – the extra 1.5 – 2 ounces is worth carrying IMHO when it’s consistently below freezing at night.

“One advantage with the Revelation is if it becomes wet it can be unzipped and laid out flat for quicker drying times.”

^^^I like having this option on my Rev