Reassessing Backcountry Sanitation: Packing Out Human Waste

I am skeptical that studies show disease is caused by catholes, but willing to consider this

The Ells and Monz study concluded “Although surface smears appear favorable to cathole techniques in terms of indicator bacteria reduction, the application of this method is limited by several other factors common to backcountry sanitation situations. It is therefore likely that surface disposal would only be applicable in very remote, low use, alpine and arid settings where lack of soil development precludes the use of catholes and carry-out techniques are otherwise impractical.”

So it does not say that catholes cause disease, but to use catholes instead of surface smear in some cases.  I’ve never heard of the surface smear technique.

In the Seastedt study they say “Despite a longer snow-free season and higher surface temperatures in dry meadows, decay in these areas is substantially lower than in moist meadows. Studies of decay rates of roots within the soil indicate that decay is uniformly low in all habitats and is limited by low temperatures and perhaps by the absence of certain groups of decomposer invertebrates.”

That’s useful information, put your cathole in a moist place.  And in alpine areas in general decay is slow.

The other references are about agencies regulating use of catholes.

I wonder if there’s any disease caused by human poop.  Maybe it would be difficult to study.

It makes sense to ban catholes on crowded rivers because the use is so concentrated, or in alpine areas with no organic areas.

I need to do my study of checking a cathole later to see how much it’s decayed.

I wonder if there’s any disease caused by human poop. Maybe it would be difficult to study.

Caused by?  No more so than any other pathogen carrier causes it, but being the carrier is the causative factor.  That’s why – by way of example – we refer to fecal contamination of water as the cause of cholera, typhoid, lepto, etc.  Am I interpreting your wondering correctly, here?

Unhealthy humans leave unhealthy poop. Decomposed or not, nitrification can change the flora and even the fauna. The Colorado trail is said to average around 500 thru hikers a year, plus all the section hikers. 500 poops every 15 to 20 miles. Hopefully away from water sources, though I would gander, not to far away. I have started to carry a couple Smelly Proof bags inside a about a 6 liter DCF bag. One for trash, one for the other.  Repurposing my freeze dry meal bags. So far only on short trips.  I generally have a dog with me anyway. I’m glad Ryan brought this up. Get past the stigma of carrying a bag of poop.

No, I wonder if there are any studies that show human poop in cat holes causes any disease in other humans or wild animals.

I wouldn’t have a problem carrying my poop out if it prevented some health problem in humans or r wild animals.

I think it’s a great idea that people carry their poop out if they’re boating in a narrow stream corridor or climbing a mountain where there aren’t any good places for poop to decompose

No, I wonder if there are any studies that show human poop in cat holes causes any disease in other humans or wild animals

I found three or four such studies with a basic AI-assisted search; seems like there’s research, but not a ton of it.

Beyond that: yes, human waste in any soil setting is a well-documented source for the spread of disease.  Take a look at the 5F diagram for disease transmission: fluid, flies, fingers, foods and fields.  That last one means soil: various pathogens that are common in human waste can persist for months and years in soil, and that goes for surface and sub-surface contamination.  Areas that favor slow decomposition are the simply the most dangerous in regards to pathogen preservation and later transmission, but it’s a potential problem anywhere.

Personally, I have no problem with using the coniferous facilities in areas that see little to no human traffic…but if I’m somewhere populated, then yeah: pack it out.  Not gonna be part of that problem.

were there any cases of animals getting sick from catholes

if bacteria persist in the cathole it’s not a big deal.

I would be happy to pack out my poop if it prevented disease in animals

I think the main problem is aesthetic.  No one wants to see toilet paper strewn around when they’re in the wilderness.  I know I don’t.  Whenever I encounter it, I bury it properly.  And I take out any trash I see, which is mainly just the corner of a candy bar, rubber band,…

what are the three or four you found with ai assisted search?

I don’t know if it’s possible to accurately document wild animal illnesses in a way that would answer your question…but I disagree that bacteria still existing isn’t a big deal.  Any exposure of that still-present pathogen brings it back into play, potentially: that could be accidental human re-excavation, animal digging/ingestion, water washing it out, etc.  Is any of that likely?  Eh, depends on the usage and overall contamination of the site, probably…but the point is that it’s actually pretty easy for most pathogens to spread: that’s literally what many of them are best at doing.

Aesthetics are definitely a problem, but they’re a tertiary problem to me.  The main issue I see is simple overuse and impact, and the secondary issue are the possible health impacts…and yeah, the visual remnants aren’t great, either.

I didn’t write down the studies that I found, but two of them were about waste decomposition in alpine areas, one was focused on heavy site usage in a desert (Escalante?) and I can’t recall the specifics of the last one, but it was also focused on whether or not catholes adequately reduce the possibility of disease transmission.  You can likely find them with a quick search…but since there isn’t a great number of them available, I think the direct research is sketchy.

I think the main problem is aesthetic

I think the main problem is lack of convenience. It’s accepted pollution designed to bring in tourism.

1. “Come to Colorado. S*** in our woods.”
2. ” The land of clear blue waters and poop”.
3. “Take only pictures, leave only your poop”.

It’s hypocritical what we do do.

I think that if you’re worried about animal health, you shouldn’t just carry your poop out and call it good

If you’re really worried about this, which I am, you could take grizzly bears as an example.

Biologists determined that to have a long term sustainable population, you need to have enough bears to have enough genetic diversity.  In order to do this, the bears need to be able to go between Yellowstone, northern Idaho, and Canada.  You need wildlife corridors between them.

Between Yellowstone and Canada/Idaho, there’s a highway and developed valley.  There are farms with fences.  It’s difficult for the bears to get through this.

If you do things like get the farmers to leave the gates on their farms open when not needed, that will allow the bears to pass.  And some other actions. There was a great documentary on PBS about this.

In Canada there are some highways with overpasses for wildlife to pass.  This reduces deaths from cars hitting them.  They’re making such an overpass over highway 101 in Los Angeles to allow exchange of mountain lion populations.  It’s amazing that when you build an overpass, animals will figure it out.  They are constantly exploring and will find the safer way to cross the highway.

Or millions of birds are killed flying into windows. People are trying to figure out how to reduce this, like I was just reading about putting a film over the window will let the birds know there’s something there and not fly into it.  There’s a skyscraper in Chicago they were experimenting on.  There are dead birds on the sidewalk every morning.

That’s the sort of thing you have to do for animal health.

I sort of object to the idea that you can just say that maybe human poop in the woods might hurt animals, so we’ll just regulate that people have to pack out their poop.

We have only so much time, money, and energy to address problems.  We should use that in the most productive ways.  Having a campaign to get people to carry out their poop doesn’t seem like the most efficient way to improve animal health.

I need to do that experiment of burying my poop and checking it 6 months later to see if it’s decomposed.

In the Eldorado National Forest just west of Desolation Wilderness they closed one area to camping because they found a very high concentration of e. coli bacteria in the streams there–a result of so many people using incorrect poop procedures. They decided the whole area was a health risk.

I avoid areas where packing out your poop is required–not because I find that repellent, but because that’s a clear indication there are way too many people there for my comfort or pleasure.

Meanwhile, as a volunteer, we are instructed to bury any human poop we find, and to do so more than 200 feet from water.  We pack out all TP that we find, because despite what some believe, it gets dug up by rodents and reappears all too often.

“In the Eldorado National Forest just west of Desolation Wilderness they closed one area to camping because they found a very high concentration of e. coli bacteria in the streams there–a result of so many people using incorrect poop procedures. They decided the whole area was a health risk.”

That makes sense, good policy, in my opinion

I really appreciate people that help maintain trails by carrying out trash.  Also cutting trees across trails.  Also talking to people on the trail about LNT.

I have seen TP dug up by rodents.  It’s pretty easy to carry it out.  low weight.

Having a campaign to get people to carry out their poop doesn’t seem like the most efficient way to improve animal health.

It isn’t necessarily the most efficient, but it’s one of the easiest aspects of overall health to address.  We know for a fact that various mammals can pick up and transmit both giardia and crypto, and carnivorous animals that can (and do) scavenge feces are easily infected by e. coli, salmonella, etc.  The same goes for norovirus, Hep A, etc…and also possibly parasites.  The incidence from this happening in catholes specifically is very tenuously known, but the basic transmission vectors are not really up for debate.  Poo is an issue, period.

I won’t argue that larger infrastructure changes – i.e. overpasses to allow wildlife population movement – are effective, but improvements to basic sanitation practices on the individual level definitely have a place at the table.   In this case, the blanket “pack it out” rules are aimed at:

1. People that genuinely don’t know what to do without specific instructions.
2. People that want to be helpful and ethical, but whom also may need a bit of gentle encouragement to do so.
3. People that are going to be actively deterred by the mere existence of the rule, because it means they can’t just do whatever they want, penalty-free.

This certainly doesn’t cover everyone, because not everyone is part of the problem.  Consider yourself, for example: you’re willing to understand a 6-month study just to see if your poo-disposal methods pass muster…so you’re not really the guy that’s causing the issue in the first place.

link posted this on another thread https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HR3qsS7s7w0

In that case they were carrying out garbage bags of trash

They don’t allow catholes there, you have to use these boxes that you sit on, and when they’re full, they carry them out.  For some reason, there were many full boxes.  I wonder if it’s because they don’t have the money to remove them.  Do they use a helicopter? or carry on pack animals?  Or maybe it’s because the area is flooded with people.

They said there are many tiktok videos of people going there.  It appears Colchuck Lake in particular has gone viral.

They definitely need to do something.  On the video, the sheriff said they might have to close the road a few miles back to reduce the number of people.

That all makes sense,  although I didn’t read anything about animals being harmed, I think it’s just aesthetic. But it’s so extreme I think they need to do something.  Closing the road a few miles back seems like an easy solution.

I am meticulous about burying my poop and everyone else should be too.  That one study that Ryan posted said that it has to be moist soil – I will now look for moist soil to use, great idea.

If the rules say that you have to use proper cathole technique but some people are ignoring this, then changing the rule to carry out your poop won’t be effective – the people that are ignoring the cathole rule will ignore the carry your poop out rule.

When I have encountered toilet paper flowers, it seemed like people were marking where they pooped so someone else could avoid it.  Just a guess on my part.  If that’s true, then there should be a sign at the trailhead saying not to leave toilet paper flowers, don’t worry, if you properly dig a cathole no one will accidentally get into it, it will decompose fairly quickly.  Do it far enough away from a campsite at a place people are unlikely to walk.

It seems like that would be a better strategy to improve back country aesthetics.

Much depends on the trail population. Go off on a side trail. The same side trail that everybody else takes. Find the same perfect spot that 100 fellow hikers found. Dig up the same cathole. Up in a small drainage 200′ from the water, hoping it never rains. You don’t have to dig holes. Don’t have to carry a trowel. Plop, pick up, and go  It’s a luxury item.

Question about using a dedicated odor-resistant bag. Does that make the bag single-use or is there a way to sanitize it at home and re-use it?

Soap and water. Your own  poop won’t hurt you. If available , recycled  bags, coffee bean bags, freeze dry food bags,  doggie bags.