RBTR waterproof/breathable fabric

[Diane Pinkers]

I’ve been getting promos from Ripstop By the Roll in my e-mail box.  I’m intrigued by their recent ad of a waterproof/breathable material that they have developed.  I have no way to evaluate whether their claims are useful, or how to compare to say eVent or Goretex for performance.  Anyone here able to comment, based on their lab analysis?

 

1.4 oz 10 D WPB

Lab tests

It will still have the major fail of WPB fabrics in my opinion, which is the DWR coating.  I’m not impressed with after market renewal products.  It still piques my curiosity, especially after seeing Jerry’s raincoat at the PNW GGG.

[Diane Pinkers]

Here, let me fix that broken link if I can.

https://ripstopbytheroll.com/products/1-4-oz-10d-waterproof-breathable?inf_contact_key=110d4da9cff12b39dfc02144d45e4e8ee80a99b80e444f453e8baa1b62a9bffe&variant=26260522497

 

 

[Jack]

https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/lukes-micro10-waterproof/

[Jerry Adams]

That looks pretty good – maybe next jacket

You could make a jacket with that : )

For 2.5 layer fabrics, put a facing fabric inside at the shoulders and hood and it will prolong it’s life without making it much heavier.  Plus, it makes it more waterproof.

[Diane Pinkers]

Well, Jerry, if the Zpacks Challenger jacket I have now fails me, I may well do that, although my current track record with a sewing machine is pretty poor.  The investment level may be lower, and I can design it to be how I want that way.  That will allow for market beta testing, to see if the material is as good as they think it is.

I still think that the weak link is the DWR.  Once that is shot, it is difficult to get the same level of performance back.  Since you make your own raincoats, how do you deal with that situation?  How long does a jacket last you?  Unless, of course the changeover point is your own desire to fiddle, test, and make something new?

Interesting other thread, Jack, thanks.  I dip my toe into MYOG land only periodically, so I had missed that one.

[Jerry Adams]

most gear lifetime is determined by my curiosity to try something new

WPB lifetime is determined by delamination in my experience

wash gear, apply Atsko Permanent water and stain repellent to restore DWR?  I really only tried this on some eVent that had started delaminating and it didn’t help much, but my Pertex Shield must be a year old now so I should treat it

I think maybe MYOG is more for entertainment than saving money

[Diane Pinkers]

I kinda thought that the curiosity bug would be the determining factor ;-).  Haven’t tried Atsko, the McNett’s product that is sprayed on, then heat-set in the dryer is better by FAR than the Nikwax products. Why the heck REI sells the Nikwax is beyond me, it’s pure crap as far as I can tell.

I’m not sure I’ve ever saved money with a MYOG project, ’tis true.  Used to be that making your own clothes was a prudent penny saving move.  Never mind technical fabric, these days fabric costs are high enough that it comes out as a wash.  Basically, it is a creativity thing, and the pleasure of designing something to spec.

[Geoff Caplan]

I’ve been thinking of knocking up something based on Roger Caffin’s Mountain Poncho.

This essentially works by ventilation, so an impermeable fabric would do the job. But the new RSBTR breathable had caught my eye. A little breathability couldn’t hurt, I guess.

The new fabric is probably a bit fragile, but as the poncho goes over the pack there wouldn’t be much abrasion outside of bushwhacking.

Obviously in some conditions it will wet out, but then I’d be no worse off that I would be if I used standard silnylon. And in more average conditions it might help, as I’m quite a sweaty type.

Worth a go? I’d welcome any advice.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Geoff

Just so.

Cheers

[Justin Baker]

If the face fabric of a wpb wets out it will become heavy and the wet cold fabric can suck the heat out of you (even though its not leaking). Maybe the cold fabric isn’t an issue for a poncho.

[Roger Caffin]

Wearing a silnylon poncho in the rain in the snow (yeah, BAD combo), I normally manage to get up enough of a fug inside that the cold (and often slightly damp) fabric is not a problem. Having said that, some points:
* You can not stay dry in such conditions; all you can do is to stay warm.
* If you are standing around you will probably get cold and wet.
* I keep my arms out of the sleeves, crossed across my chest.

Cheers

[Jerry Adams]

In order for a WPB to work, it should be next to you.  The heat and humidity inside drives water vapor through the fabric.

If you have a loose fitting poncho, then you may as well use a waterproof fabric, like the silpoly would be good.  It weighs less, costs less (?), lasts longer.

 

[Jerry Adams]

WPB “wetting out” is not that big a deal.  It’s happened to me several times recently.

For example, walking around Mt Hood a couple weeks ago.  It rained medium heavy all day.  I was committed, so I had to walk 9 miles/1500 feet elevation gain.

Yeah, my nylon base layer got damp, wet on my back under pack.  I stayed warm by walking a bit briskly.

At end of day it finally stopped raining so my jacket and base layer dried out in a couple hours of wearing.  On another trip it was still raining when I went to bed, so I loosely rolled my jacket next to door, and the next day it stopped raining so I put it on and it dried out in a couple hours.

I recently switched to a down vest, but I think I’m going to switch back to synthetic.  If I was wet and cold, the down vest would quickly loose all its loft and become almost useless.  A synthetic vest would retain it’s loft even if wet.

If it rains heavily only a couple hours, then I stay dry under the WPB jacket, even if the outside surface wets out for a while.  And PNW usually rains lightly for extended periods – WPB surface never wets out.

[Diane Pinkers]

I think that the wetting out contributes to chilling, because of conductive heat loss.  I’m really liking an umbrella as long as there are no high winds, because keeping the cold rain off the body surface contributes to keeping warmer.

I was thinking about my insulating layers at the PNW GGG, with all the cold rain and wind.  I was wearing a light fleece vest under my shell, over my base layer.  It wasn’t quite enough, and I was getting chilled.  I should have brought a complete fleece jacket layer, instead of my usual down puffy.  I was worried about using that extensively in camp under my shell, for fear of the down wetting out, and getting to nightfall with poor insulation.  Normally, I’m not in camp and I’m moving more than we were that day.  If I’m not sure the layer is going to perform in those conditions, why am I carrying it?  Maybe if I’d had my fleece, I would have been more confident in hanging around in camp in those conditions, and would have stayed longer.  Of course, I could have just hunkered down inside my tent, in my quilt, but in a social situation, who wants to be tied down in their tent?

[Justin Baker]

Wetted out shell fabric can definitely chill you, especially in the scenario of summer backpacking when you have no mid layer and you get caught in an unexpectedly cold alpine storm. A thin base layer is not much of a buffer from that icy cold shell.

[Geoff Caplan]

Jerry, you  make a good point. Most of the benefits of a waterproof breathable will be lost in a conventional poncho,

Roger’s design is a cross between a jacket and a poncho so it’s arguable that there may be benefits. But is it worth sacrificing the simplicity and robustness of silnylon? Hmm – time for an extended dither. I’ll probably play it safe and stick with the silnylon.

.As for wetting out and chill, you also get a layer of water on the face of an impermeable fabric in these conditions, so I doubt that there would be much in it.

If it’s warm rain I often wouldn’t bother with a waterproof as I’m going to sweat up a storm anyway. I use a fast-drying base layer and don’t mind too much if it gets wet.

If it’s cold enough that chill is a worry, I’d wear my 100-weight fleece pullover under the waterproof. It’s only 230g and I’d always carry it if there was any chance of cold rain (ie – 100% of the time in the UK!). This keeps the shell off my skin and makes life more comfortable.

If it’s a truly freezing wind, I’d also wear my windshell between the fleece and the waterproof. I’m assuming that a drawcord at the hem of the poncho-jacket would help keep out some of the draft, and the windshell would mop up the rest and keep me warmer.

 

[Roger Caffin]

With you Geoff.

Cheers

 

[Sam Farrington]

Gossamer WPB jackets, running 4-6 oz generally, will feel like you are getting wet in heavy rain even when not, because the fabric has almost no insulative value and the temp inside and out are the same. And if the breathability is not great, the condensation inside will also be as cold as the rain.
This is easily remedied by putting on a long sleeved light fleece top under the jacket, assuming you carry fleece as I always do, even in hot weather, because in mountain weather the temp can drop suddenly.

The DWR is another issue. Without it, the fabric will wet out in heavy rain. Cannot imagine that it can allow water vapor to pass through when it is soaked, as nylon will be because it absorbs water. So even if the HH holds, you will be soaked by your own perspiration, that will soon soak even a fleece top underneath a jacket. Would expect that to actually increase, rather than decrease, the prospects of hypothermia.

It is a bear to get a handle on which products have a DWR coat that will last any length of time. One BPL poster stated that his Torrentshell Jacket wetted out right away, even though ‘Deluge DWR’ is regarded as one of the better ones, and that is a heavier jacket, not one of the gossamer ones.
There are some older articles on BPL that may help:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/ul_wpb_jackets_sotmr_part2.html
https://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/rietveld-mountain-sul-4b.html

Have tried lots of brands, and find that the expensive ones, like Patagonia last longer.
So with an M-10, about 8.5 oz in XL, have not gotten wet yet. May take a chance with Luke’s Ultralite 4 oz jacket for a lot less $ to lighten the load >4 oz and take up less space.

The spray recoats also vary greatly. Tectron Wet Guard spray was the best I ever found, but it is no longer available, and the replacement product contains silicone that may disable some WPBs. It did that with a pair of Salomon boots, allowing water to totally drench, both inside and out, boots labelled ‘Climashield Waterproof’ in a matter of seconds in heavy rain.
Some products from established manufacturers without silicone are:
McNett Revivex pump spray
Kiwi Camp Dry Performance Fabric Protector (Blue can, NOT the red or green cans)
Granger’s Universal Footwear Waterproofer (pump or aerosol)
3M Scotch Gard Heavy Duty Water Repellent for Outdoor Fabrics
(BTW, Atsko Silicone Water-Guard, as the name states, contains silicone, and unless Atsko Inc has been bought out by McNett, is not a McNett product.)

Before spraying, I follow Editor Roger Caffin’s advice to wash with Atsko Sport-Wash to remove oils and other contamination that may disable the WPB, and then dry.

Some time in the dryer after applying the spray also helps. Revivex says use medium temp setting, but of course, dryers are different. I found that when the jacket felt about half way between medium and hot after 10-15 mins worked best after about half an hour.

Also, Suggest not using a wash-in product on WPB rain gear, as it may clog the pores on the inside of the material.)

Still on the last two cans of Tectron. Will have to pick my poison when they are empty.

Happy Trails, Rain or Shine.

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