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  • #3427638
    Chance A
    BPL Member

    @chancea

    What is a decent raincoat that’s not going to break my bank? I’ve been using Columbia’s packable raincoat, but I’m looking for something a bit lighter and breathable. I’m also shooting for neutral tones because I also plan on using it for deer hunting this fall.

    #3427666
    Jerry Adams
    BPL Member

    @retiredjerry

    Locale: Oregon and Washington

    I make my own, but any 2.5 layer works pretty good like https://www.rei.com/product/892194/rei-co-op-rain-jacket-mens – 10 ounces, $60

    2.5 layer is not real durable though – after a few years the laminate will degrade and it starts leaking.  It helps if you don’t let your skin sit against it – wear long shirt…

    #3427669
    Ben C
    BPL Member

    @alexdrewreed

    Locale: Kentucky

    DriDucks

     

    #3427670
    JCH
    BPL Member

    @pastyj-2-2

    Not all 2.5L jackets are fragile or short lived.  I will agree that they are not as durable as 3L technologies but neither are they as heavy or as expensive.

    I purchased a 2.5L Marmot Mica in June 2012 and it is still going strong…no leaking or delimitation.  It weighs 7.8 oz in size XL.  Granted, like most rain jackets, it spends most of it’s time in the pack, but it has been worn quite a bit, has worked admirably and still looks new.  I did renew the DWR once about a year ago.

    I think Jerry hit upon the main issue with 2.5L fabrics…don’t wear them with direct skin contact.

     

    #3427673
    Jennifer Mitol
    Spectator

    @jenmitol

    Locale: In my dreams....

    is now a good time to complain about how old the last State of the Market Report on WPB was done?

    #3427683
    James holden
    BPL Member

    @bearbreeder-2

    theres a not insignificant chance that ANY rain jacket will fail …

    UL increases that chance, as does 2.5L …

    theres been plenty of cases where barely worn rain jackets simply fail or delaminate over the years ….

    if you want the most “reliable” not to fail get goretex

    if you want the best warranty … get OR

    make sure the manufacturer is one with a good warranty as theres plenty of folks who have had issues having a delaminating rain jacket getting covered through warranty

    a simple search on BPL and the intrawebz will bring up these topics

    the other issue in “internet review” … remember that one person can easily have the same jacket as another and have totally different experiences …

    theres a recent thread on the marmot precip which illustrates this point quite well

    https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/marmot-precip-dud-or-singular-bad-experience/

    really your only defense against it is the warranty … as you can always get a lemon, or the person saying how great it is might not have gotten the lemon

    and unlike other things with a delaminating rain jacket you cant make lemonade

    ;)

    #3427685
    Brad Rogers
    BPL Member

    @mocs123

    Locale: Southeast Tennessee

    Outdoor Reasearch Helium? It may not be the absolute best rain jacket but it is light and OR will replace it if/when it de-laminates.

    #3427779
    Jeffrey Hlavac
    BPL Member

    @jmhlavac

    Locale: Pacific Northwest

    OR Helium Summer and shoulder seasons, Marmot Precip for Winter and hunting.

    #3427783
    Pigeon
    BPL Member

    @popeye

    I tried an Outdoor Research Helium HD but traded down for a Revel jacket. Like the Helium it’s also Pertex shield, but slightly thicker and stretchy with hand pockets and giant side zippers for ventilation.

    #3427789
    tom lakner
    BPL Member

    @lakneremu

    Locale: midwest

    + 1Dri Ducks

    #3427790
    Jerry Adams
    BPL Member

    @retiredjerry

    Locale: Oregon and Washington

    I got Pertex Shield from thru-hiker for my own jacket.  That works pretty good.

    If it rains fairly heavy all day like it did twice recently, then my shirt will get a little damp, but when I get inside tent and take jacket off, my shirt dries pretty quickly.

    If it rains intermittently or not very heavy the Pertex Shield works quite well.

    I’ve had the same experience with eVent, but it delaminated

    I’ve had the same experience with 3 layer Goretex, but it’s heavy

    I’ve used generic WPB but they did not breath very well so I don’t use them

    #3427798
    Ken Thompson
    BPL Member

    @here

    Locale: Right there

    If for hunting you’ll want something quiet too. Plenty of noisy nylon jackets out there. I’d look at the DrI Ducks too. Cheap, crap construction, but fairly quiet material. Get a bunch of blood on it, chuck it, get another for $20.

    #3430743
    Dan @ Durston Gear
    BPL Member

    @dandydan

    Locale: Canadian Rockies

    I also posted this in Gear Deals, but Black Diamond has a great sale going on their Mono Point rain jacket which is their lightest Gore-Tex shell.

    The Mono Point jacket is 2.5L, Gore-Tex Paclite, 8.9oz and pretty minimal featured. Price is regularly $299 but it’s on sale for $119 and you can use a 20% off coupon (EXTRA20) to take that down to $96. All sizes currently available. Pretty sweet deal on a Gore-Tex rain jacket you can warranty if leaks.

    http://blackdiamondequipment.com/en_CA/mens-jackets-shells/m%27s-mono-point-shell-APKP12650MED1.html

    #3430794
    W I S N E R !
    Spectator

    @xnomanx

    Another vote for DriDucks if $$$ is a concern.

    Not too durable (but durable enough for trail hiking), but it’s amazing stuff.  My suit has lasted since 2009 with the help of duct tape and using only in trail hiking scenarios.

    I’ve been drier and have had less condensation in DriDucks than in my OR Helium II or Arcteryx Goretex Paclite shell….though the latter have advantages in fit and longevity.

    #3430795
    JCH
    BPL Member

    @pastyj-2-2

    @xnomanx (and any dri-ducks users): How durable are they really under shoulder straps and hip belts? I love the idea of the material, but am curious about real-world on trail durability. I have no problem with the fact that Dri-Ducks have a (more) limited lifespan and will need to be replaced, but am curious how likely they are to fail (due to strap/belt abrasion) mid-trip?

    #3430896
    Dan @ Durston Gear
    BPL Member

    @dandydan

    Locale: Canadian Rockies

    JCH,

    I’ve used DriDucks a bit. My biggest concern is that the material is pretty soft – almost like a thin felt – so the seams seem like they’d blow out under pretty moderate strain. The cut of DriDucks is super baggy so the seams don’t get much stress, but this still is perhaps the first failure point.

    I haven’t used DriDucks enough to really comment on lifespan. Like you, I was concerned about mid-trip failure so I stopped using mine after a few trips when I ponied up for more expensive rain gear. They were a gate way to light rain gear for me. Regular rain gear is more expensive and I suppose less breathable, but it’s much more durable and fits far better. DriDucks doesn’t fit much better than a poncho. On a usage/cost basis DriDucks probably do okay, but I think one could easily trash a pair on a trip with bushwacking. So the answer really depends on your intended usage. I’m sure responsible, on-trail users get a nice long life out of them – especially in areas where rain is infrequent.

    I think not a bad compromise is DriDucks pants with a regular jacket. If rain pants get destroyed is less of a problem than if your rain jacket is wrecked mid trip. The BD Mono Point I linked to above is $96, Gore-Tex and 9oz.

    #3430902
    Justin Baker
    BPL Member

    @justin_baker

    Locale: Santa Rosa, CA

    Just ordered one of those black diamond jackets, thanks Dan. Now I own 4 different rain jackets that will spend 95% of the time in my pack. But my other jackets are kind of oddballs – a neoshell jacket, a 10k hh ultralight jacket, a columbia outdry jacket. I figure the goretex will be a bit more dependable for super wet conditions but still light.

    #3430972
    Dan @ Durston Gear
    BPL Member

    @dandydan

    Locale: Canadian Rockies

    Regarding the BD Mono Point, my hope is that the torso is a bit longer than the typical UL rain jacket, which often ride up under a hipbelt or when you bend over to pitch tent stakes.

    The length looks decently long in some photos and in videos of the BD Liquid Point which is a slightly heavier GT Paclite Black Diamond jacket which appears to have the same cut. BD told me the front length is 29″, which is pretty good considering the back looks like it has a substantial drop trail. I’m hoping the center back length is at least 32″. Ideal is ~34″ IMO.

    One downside is that they ditched the toothed AquaSeal waterproof zip which was seemingly used in the 2014/15 model for a Uretek zip in the 2015/16 model which is okay but these wear out quicker and leak more.

    The Arcteryx Norvan is close to the dream jacket with an AquaSeal zip, lighter weight (7.5oz), pit vents, 3-layer and tougher (20D) fabrics (GT C-Backer) but it’s pricey and kinda short (30.3″ back length). Really short jackets like the Montbell Torrent Flier are ~28″.

    #3430979
    Justin Baker
    BPL Member

    @justin_baker

    Locale: Santa Rosa, CA

    How is it possible that they could make something 3 layer, tougher, and lighter? That doesn’t make sense to me.

    #3430982
    Ben C
    BPL Member

    @alexdrewreed

    Locale: Kentucky

    I use Dri-ducks pretty regularly.  I have a nice relatively light 3L eVent jacket and a Rab Pertex Shield + jacket in the closet, but I seem to pick out my Dri-ducks jacket more often than not for these reasons:

    • When not using it, it is lighter than my others
    • When wearing it, it is more breathable than the others
    • There is no DWR to wear off so it won’t wet out
    • I’m never too worried about damaging it because its cheap
    • If I damage it, it can be easily repaired with duct tape or most anything else

    The pants can be used but rip out really easily.  I usually wear a rain skirt instead.

    I’ve used them a fair amount.  I ripped the whole crotch out of the pants the first time I used them.  The pants don’t fit me well and I don’t typically use them.  I like the jacket.  It has shown some wear over time but really just a few very small spots.  I carry a pretty light pack usually; I could see a heavy pack wearing on the jacket.  But again, it would be easy to repair.  Bushwhacking could cause some issues, but again, it’s easy to repair.

    #3430994
    Dan @ Durston Gear
    BPL Member

    @dandydan

    Locale: Canadian Rockies

    “How is it possible that they could make something 3 layer, tougher, and lighter? That doesn’t make sense to me.”

    I’ve wondered this as well. In short, I think it’s a combination of a smaller than expected fabric weight difference combined with the surprising importance of feature weight.

    I think the weight difference between the 12D 2.5 Layer Paclite and 20D 3 Layer C-Knit is not that great. The specs I can find for 2.5 Layer Paclite are 65g/m2 (12D), 85g/m2 (30D) or 125g/m2 (75D). I can’t find a spec for 20D 3 Layer GT C-Knit, but the 30D is 95g/m2, 40D is 117g/m2 and 70D is 135g/m2. So 20D C-Knit should be no more than 85g/M2.

    So going from Paclite to C-Knit in the same denier adds ~10g/m2, while going from 12D to 20D adds ~10g/m2 for a total hit of 20g/m2 (65 vs 85). A rain jacket only has 1.5 – 2 m2 of fabrics, so the fabric difference is 1-1.5oz between 12D Paclite to 20D C-Knit.

    This sounds like a nice trade off – a beefier fabric fabric plus 3 layer for only 1.5oz extra on the jacket. However I think there’s a bit more to it than this. Gore-Tex makes their membranes thinner on high end products to boost breathability, but this arguably comes at the expense of lifespan. I can’t see the C-Knit backer only weighing 10g/m2, so I think they’ve also probably put on a thinner coat of PU as well. My guess is the C-Knit backer adds ~25g/m2 but there are savings of 10g/m2 for not having the .5 layer and 5g/m2 savings via a thinner membrane. So the 3-layer C-knit membrane could easily be no more durable than the 2.5 layer Paclite. Even if the membrane is the same, recall that the .5 layer for Paclite is actually a “carbon backer” that fully covers the membrane, unlike 2.5 layer jackets of old that just has rubber dots inside, so it appears to be pretty much a 3 layer (but hard to be sure from online photos). So I’m not sure C-knit offers much over Paclite despite the 3-layer characterization. Obviously a 20D face fabric will out perform 12D under abrasion, but membranes are usually the cause of death for UL rain gear and membranes (as opposed to DWRs) normally degrade from the inside. By this, I mean under pack straps the membrane and/or backer rubs against ones shoulders until the membrane cracks or bubbles and degrades. I have lots of WP/B jackets that leak at the shoulders while the outer face fabric looks fine.

    Anyways back to the actual question of how is the Norvan lighter. Recall that with a generous estimate of 2 m2 of fabric, these jackets have 130 – 170g of actual fabric and total weights 215 – 253g. So features are a big part of this. The Norvan has super minimal elastic wrists, while the Mono Point has adjustable cuffs (+0.5oz?).  Same goes for the waist hem, which is shockcord adjustable in the Mono Point (+0.5oz) but fixed in the Norvan. As well the Mono Point has a hood that is helmet compatible (+0.5oz), with a proper brim (+0.5oz) and shockcord adjustment (+0.5oz), whereas the Norvan hood is snug and non-adjustable and without a stiffened brim. Some of these features are nice while others are unneeded but in sum they should more than offset the fabric difference enough to explain the 1oz lighter Norvan. Also, both jackets have a chest pocket but the Norvan’s is inside and smaller with a short and IIRC smaller gauge zipper. Lastly, the Norvan is seemingly a shorter jacket (30.3″ back length) which saves more weight, probably enough to offset its heavier Vislon zipper.

    Oh and the sizing is quite different too. At 5’11” , 170 lbs I need a large in the Norvan (I’ve tried it on quite a bit) whereas the Mono Point is supposed cut for layering and has long sleeves, so hopefully a medium will fit me well. So the actual weight difference is probably no more than .5oz, not 1oz.

    This hasty analysis shows how much features really do matter. While the Mono Point looks feature laded here, it’s still quite a minimal jacket (e.g. no hand pockets, internal pockets, pit zips etc.). A related datapoint is Montbell’s Torrent Flier jacket, which uses the same fabrics as the Mono Point and has all the same features plus has pit zips, yet is 10g lighter. I think this is explained by length. The Storm Torrent is really short (28″) while the Mono Point should be decent (31″+). One last point of reference is Haglofs LIM III jacket. It delivers 20D Paclite for 0.5oz less than the Mono Point and even is sort of long (31.5″), which looks to be achieved through a smaller hood, non-adjustable wrists and maybe the Mono Point is longer. Both the LIM III and Norvan are quite appealing jackets but I’ve never seen either for less than twice the current sale price of the Mono Point.

    Arcteryx took a risk with the Norvan is making almost everything non-adjustable (hood, cuffs, waist). So you really want to try it on before you buy. I do think they did a good job in that I find the hood, wrists and hem all quite reasonable in a size large (I’m 5’11”, 170lbs) but other body shapes might have issues. Also the length is indeed marginal. It’ll ride up like most UL jackets. I’d much rather they ditched the interior pocket and gave the coat an extra 2-3″ of length.

    #3431056
    Diane Pinkers
    BPL Member

    @dipink

    Locale: Western Washington

    If you don’t mind the whole North Face urban adventure wear thing, their Venture jacket is good-11 ounces, good DWR, only enough features without being overly heavy, a wide range of sizes and colors to suit most needs. Pit-Zips and stowable in pocket are two things I look for.

    #3431085
    Dan @ Durston Gear
    BPL Member

    @dandydan

    Locale: Canadian Rockies

    Is that 11oz in womens? The mens is listed at 14oz and the one I used to have was 14oz. Good jacket though. Very impressed with the fit and waterproofness.

    #3431111
    Diane Pinkers
    BPL Member

    @dipink

    Locale: Western Washington

    Yes, I was looking specifically at the women’s, sorry, habit.

    #3431243
    Dan @ Durston Gear
    BPL Member

    @dandydan

    Locale: Canadian Rockies

    Amazingly my BD Mono Point arrived today – just 3 days from ordering and I’m in Canada.

    I quickly tried it on as I was running out the door and I thought I’d post a few quick notes in case anyone is interested in taking advantage of this great sale on a UL Gore-Tex jacket (Recall it’s marked down from $299 to $119 on BD’s website and the EXTRA20 coupon code gets that down to $96):

    http://blackdiamondequipment.com/en_CA/mens-jackets-shells/m%27s-mono-point-shell-APKP12650MED1.html

    – As hoped, the length appears quite good for a UL rain jacket. Seems like a proper length shell rather than a truncated torso like most UL jackets. I suspect the center back length is +32″ but I haven’t measured yet. Tentatively stoked about this.

    – Sleeves are also nice and long. A size medium looks like it’ll fit my 5’11, 170 lbs self quite well.

    – The zips are unfortunately just regular YKK zippers – like a windshirt – not even Uretek (plastic) coated ones like most rain jackets, let alone a sweet Vislon toothed zipper like the 2014/15 version of the Mono Point had. The website specs and pictures showed this, but I still hoped it wasn’t so. Fortunately BD has extended the seam taping inside the jacket to mostly cover the back of the zipper, and there is a nice stiff waterproof flap behind the zipper, so water ingress during hiking shouldn’t be an issue. However rain pooling on ones lap while sitting might seep through. With the weight of the seam taping and flap, I bet a nice Vislon zip wouldn’t have weighed any more (but would have costed more). If this zipper is an issue some seam grip should turn it into a faux uretek coated one, but might raise eyebrows at the warranty department.

    – The hood is quite fully featured. It’s more features than I need, but hood lovers might like this. In addition to full shockcord adjustability and seemingly a good brim, there is also thin fleece lining where it might rub around the back and sides of the neck.

    – Fabric looks nice. The inside is fully coated with the “carbon” liner. This jacket would be crazy light if it didn’t have a robust feature set. Spec’d like the Norvan it might weigh under 6oz. I suspect I’ll end up replacing the shock cord with really thin stuff (1/16″) to knock some weight off.

     

     

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