Pushing limits of three-season gear

A couple of questions that might help folks help

What kind of shelter are you using? Enclosed will be warmer then a tarp

What is the summer quilt and summer bag options?

What sleeping pad are you using?

How much room will you have inside the bivy? With a taller pad you may compress your insulation layers if you are doubling up the quilts, which will reduce the amount of warmth they will hold in

The shelter is a BPWD canopy with two beaks. I was thinking it wouldn’t be that different from a tent if I pitch it low and use a bivy. My summer quilt is a Brooks Range Cloak 45. The sleeping bag is an REI travel sack. It’s not much insulation, but it is bigger. The sleeping pad is a Big Agnes Sand Mountain (2.5 inches thick, synthetic insulation, R-value 4). I’ve had it in the bivy with that quilt and there seemed to be room for more, but you are right it couldn’t hurt to check with whatever I decided to take.

I do something similar.  I wear a synthetic vest, down vest over that, synthetic balaclava.

I have slept in a winter tent at 5F with a 15F degree bag (Older Montbell SS UL 15F or something the sort) and an EE 40F down quilt draped over. The quilt was ordered oversized for this purpose, so the inside bag wouldn’t be compressed. I was warm in just my thermals. Inside a bivy, I am confident I choosing the Cloak 45F and the EE 20F quilt could take me to zero or below.

On another occasion, I slept at -25F inside a hammock, and my top insulation were the same two bags draped over me. It is possible I wore some sort of down jacket, but I don’t recall at this point. I slept inside a winter sock and a tarp over the set up. Warm, warm, warm. Having said that I seem to sleep warmer than most people.

High calorie food

Adding your summer quilt would be the safe solution, is less than 1lb, and will cost no money. My suggestion would be to not initially deploy it and see if you are OK without it (test your limits).

My strategy has been to bring a bag/quilt which is warm enough for me in the weather I “expect”, and use my clothing to cover the temp drop that I sometimes experience. I my case, I am using an old ghost quilt which I am happy at 30F and can sleep down to around 20F wearing just my base.  If I am cold I use my puffy jacket as a quilt over my core. When I really expected cold I would have puff pants that would be brought.

–Mark

Food is a good idea, especially since it’s not my habit to eat before sleep.

Taking the Cloak 45 was my first thought as the best option. I was concerned because it’s not an oversized quilt as mentioned above. It’s just big enough to cover me. But maybe that’s not an issue if I just need a few degrees boost. Turned sideways, it’s big enough to cover my core and would probably stay on just fine when I switch sides. The bivy and the EE straps should prevent any exposure to drafts.

Calories comes from the Latin word for heat.

No calories, no heat.

Just my 2 cents… Sleeping pad R value. If you get a bag certified as 20 degree, as an example, that bag is saying “on the ground with no pad you will live until 20 degrees Fahrenheit.” Don’t get me wrong it’ll suck but you’ll live.

I think people often forget how important a pad or under quilt is

The EN ratings assume you are using “a basic foam mat”.

Using your water bottle as a hot water bottle will do wonders. be sure to test it before you put it in your sleeping bag!

If you’re cold when you go to bed, and you’re wearing a coat, it can be hard to warm up the sleeping bag. Paradoxically, you need to take off the coat to warm up the bag.

@mjh I’m in the same boat as you this weekend. I’m looking to get away Sat/Sun and have the possibility of lows between 15-25F. I have a 20F EE down quilt and plan to supplement w/ wool socks, long johns, a hooded puffy & hat. I have slept in this system down to ~25F before so I know I’m within range, but I’d get pretty cold if it turned out to be 15F instead.

The “backup” I plan to bring is hand warmers. A pack of 2 is only 1.5oz, they’re cheap, last 8-10 hrs, and they can be deployed w/ almost zero effort at 2am if the need arises. The summer quilt or a liner will be much heavier, and heating up water bottles takes a lot more effort (esp if you don’t do it before going to sleep). My feet always get cold so I’d likely put one warmer at about my ankles, and then a second at my thighs if needed. One of these days, I’m going to get a pair of EE’s Sidekick booties but haven’t pulled the trigger on that yet.

Thanks for the advice everybody. My weather report is looking up. A few degrees warmer than it did earlier in the week, barely any wind, and dry. I think I’ll still take the Cloak 45. It’s only an overnight, I really don’t have a good range of experience to see how warm (or not) I sleep, and most of the established camping spots are low and near water.

I’ll probably ask for a proper insulted balaclava and some booties for Christmas.

I ended up having a low of only ~28F last night so didn’t need (get to) test the hand warmer option as a backup. Maybe another time.

But I did try one new technique which may be helpful to others. As mentioned above, my feet almost always get cold while sleeping. I’ve tried various things like thick socks, wrapping a puffy vest around them etc. these have helped but never kept them warm all night.

However last night, my feet were warm & toasty ALL night thanks to this method. I took my puffy jacket and zipped it up. Then I pulled the sleeves inside out into the jacket. Then I cinched the waist cord. Finally, I slipped my feet into the sleeves until my toes were maybe 3-4” from the wrist cuff. So my feet were hugged tight by the sleeves, and inside the cinched down portion of the jacket body. It was awesome :)

Test your limits and your gear at home in your backyard (if possible). This way, you will not have to wonder if you will be cold or not when you venture out into the backcountry.

“Test your limits and your gear at home in your backyard (if possible).”

+1 to that. Or just go on a quick car camping overnight trip and bring supplemental gear “as needed”.

Regarding cold feet, It seems to me that I need to remember that my cold feet represent a symptom of a larger problem: lack of good circulation. I’ve been thinking about this a lot since I posted the following link about a month ago:

https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/interesting-study-about-cold-feet-in-a-sleeping-bag/ 

I discovered that when I started wearing down pants, my feet stayed much warmer. I also found it was much easier for me to get going in the morning or deal with a pre-dawn potty break while sporting down pants. They are just as integral to my shoulder season kit as a down jacket.

I don’t know the exact temperature last night for me, but it must have been somewhere near 30. My shoelaces and socks (hung on the guyline) froze solid, but a water bottle set on the ground did not freeze, presumably because the ground is still holding heat.

I slept fine under the single quilt until about 3:00 a.m. when I woke shivering. I think that’s just when the heat of dinner left me. I had a snack ready but just did not feel like eating, so I pulled the other quilt over my upper body and slept soundly until dawn. The worst part was putting on frozen socks and shoes the next morning.