Poncho/groundsheet multi-use limitations

The poncho fits well under the Deschutes tarp. If you hook it up with clips on the  edges I don’t see how water could splash under the tarp and over the tub wall unless you pitch your tarp very high.

I do wonder how well it works as a ground sheet with the hood on the bottom if you had major water running under your setup. I know good site selection should mitigate but what’s the point of a bathtub floor if it can’t handle a lot of water underneath?  I’d love to hear some first hand experience here.  I suppose I could set mine up and run water under it from a hose and see if my weight on a pad is enough to keep the hood sealed.

I’ve had a ZPacks poncho/groundsheet for 6 years or so. It has been my go to rain gear on almost all my backpacking trips and often on day hikes too. I have used it a few times (maybe 4 or 5) as a ground sheet mostly to test it out. It is not something I feel is robust enough for long term use as a ground sheet, especially given its cost. So for me it is a single use item.

I also have a Cuben Deschutes and have found it adequate in the rain I have encountered, and there have been some pretty good rain storms. But given its size and my preferred ground protection of polypro or a waterproof foam mat, I take great care in site selection. I have been on trips where others ended up in a pool of water and my site was well drained. Not that I am smarter than the others, but since I don’t have a floor and have a mid I am more willing to spend extra time finding the best spot possible. I also pitch it low when I expect a lot of rain. I also don’t give shelter condensation much thought because I can deal with it easier than dealing with a mid that is pitched too high in heavy rain.

When I expect a lot of bad weather I take my Trailstar instead.

When it comes to insects they don’t bother me as much as most people. Given that, I deal with bugs with DEET and sometimes a head net. I have never owned an inner net. So a bivy isn’t a bug solution for me, which leads to my thoughts on bivies in general (YMMV). Years ago I often used a bivy with a poncho/tarp. The bivy (a well known and popular brand) caused condensation problems, but most important to me, it was a baindaid for an inadequate shelter (5′ x 8′ tarp) and I was placing too much emphasis on weight. When Cuben tarps came out, a 8′ x 10′ tarp along with a Marmot Essence was a lighter set up than my silnylon poncho/tarp and the bivy, plus I no longer had to remove my rain gear to convert it to a shelter. But I was back to a place I hated… WPB rainwear that didn’t breath and wasn’t water proof. This is when I got the ZPacks poncho/groundsheet and I have been singing it’s praises for years on BPL. When I got it I also got a Hexamid; the basic model when they first came out — no mesh, no beak. Great shelter I used for several years, but sometimes it was just a tiny bit too small. The Deschutes CF is similar to the Hexamid but its slightly larger size makes a huge difference in weather, plus it has much more protection at the front.

I probably didn’t provide a solution for you. The ZPacks poncho is the best rain gear I’ve ever owned and in colder weather I need to wear a kilt because my thighs get too cold. The Deschutes has handled rain well. I have taken it on most trips for the past couple of years. My favorite shelter is the Trailstar, but its drawbacks are a large footprint and it weighs about twice as much as the Deschutes. My personal opinion is Cuben has made bivies obsolete. And herein lies the problem with these kinds of conversations; there is never a perfect solution and every solution has its drawbacks and compromises. Anyway, this is my feedback and I am not saying any of your stated options are bad choices. What works for me, may or may not work for you. Also don’t let my So Calif location discount my input. I have used this gear all over the US. Good luck with whatever you end up doing.

When one comes full circle with the whole bivy+tarp conversation — which I’ve been having with myself the last 18 months or so — it seems to lead back to the Solplex as the simplest, lightest solution. (Or the Skyscape X if you can find one.)

The only things you give up are a) the multi-use aspect of the poncho/groundsheet, although I strongly agree there with Nick in that I also consider the poncho a single-use item, and one which is for me the absolute best for that single use, and b) the option to simply and quickly throw down the bivy for bug protection when there is no chance of rain and when site selection is limited.

Nick and Bob – your experiences and opinions have got me re-thinking my raingear.  I too have completely abandoned the idea that WPB jackets can actually work…especially once the backpack, straps and hipbelt press them against your body.  My experience with a GoLite poncho and the cheap $1 disposable ones turned me off to them, but I liked the concept and so moved on to a Packa, which I like for the most part.  What I don’t like is how “floppy” the fabric is (20d sil).  This is also one of the things I didn’t like about the ponchos I tried.  Now I’m wondering if the stiffness of Cuben might help keep the Poncho off the body a bit and reduce it’s tendency to “suck down onto me” once it gets a little damp on the inside.

Any sage advice?

PS: I would never use a poncho as a groundsheet, so the ZPacks flat poncho looks perhaps the best choice among what they offer.  Which one do you have Nick?

My poncho is whatever size fits a solo Hexamid. I guess it is the smallest one?

The ZPacks poncho is not a large voluminous cover with fabric flowing out to catch on things. Wearing a pack, it only reaches down to mid thigh. The Cuben is much less likely to catch on shrubs like silnylon… this includes descending trailless desert canyons with all the sharp things waiting to attack you. The material doesn’t “drape” and hug your skin.

But there are drawbacks. If the material is all wrinkled up it won’t hang all the was down. To put it on over a pack, you have to unzip one side and then zip it up. A bit of work if my largest pack is full… and I’m skinny at 5’11” and 150 lbs. I can’t use it in winter if anything is strapped to the outside of my pack like snow shoes. The arm opening are quite large compared to the typical poncho so your arms will get wet, especially if you use trekking poles, which I don’t. In cold rain I often tuck my arms inside and tuck my thumbs under each shoulder strap… actually something I do when not wearing a poncho, so it isn’t a huge adaptation for me.

I think Joe Velasko has missed an opportunity with this. Instead of focusing on a multi-purpose item that is sized to fit the bottom of his shelters, he could develop it as a poncho only. Make it longer and taper it so it provides more arm coverage, it has a does have a chest zipper that works well and there is a long zipper on each side that works well. All zippers are the water proof type. Maybe Joe does have this… I rarely check out gear websites .

The thing is ugly, which is a big plus. In town most people will avoid you as you look like a homeless person wearing a trash bag. Heck my wife walks on the other side of the street if I put it on. A few strangers will stop you and give you money :-)

Thanks Nick, I appreciate your input.

My poncho is whatever size fits a solo Hexamid.

I’m going to guess that maps to the current “Solo Plus Size” (28″ x 42″ x 84″).  At 6’1″, 220lbs and having no need for the bathtub, I’m thinking I would need to go with the “Flat Size” (52″ x 90″), which might also provide that little extra room that you mention would be nice.  Great to hear that it does not drape or hug your body…exactly what I was hoping.

…there is a long zipper on each side that works well.

I was wondering about how the sides closed up…the website’s product description mentions side zippers, but I’ll be darned if I can pick them out in any of the 4 photos.

Instead of focusing on a multi-purpose item that is sized to fit the bottom of his shelters, he could develop it as a poncho only.

If you get a spare moment…take a look at the flat size…it looks like maybe it is his attempt to do as you suggest?

A few strangers will stop you and give you money :-)

SCORE!  I could wear it on my daily walk to work…over time they might actually pay for it :)

Thanks Nick and Bob for your input on shelters – trying to make the Deschutes tarp into a shoulder season shelter using either a poncho/groundsheet or hybrid bivy may not be the best options, as much as I love using the Deschutes. And while a Solplex and Skyscape X would be interesting to explore, it’s out of this year’s budget.

A third option is to simply buy a partial solid inner for my TT Notch, a tent I don’t really use anymore. That would help greatly with chilly winds, provide better splash protection than the Deschutes and while not addressing condensation it would provide added toe and head room under the ends of the Notch’s tarp. Originally discounting this option as too heavy (34 ounces all-in with lines, stakes, partial solid inner, seam sealing and sheet), it’s seeming more reasonable to have a separate shelter system for shoulder season or likely inclement 3-season weather.

The above being said, I’m still thinking about swapping my rain jacket for the poncho/groundsheet as it would make for better raingear where I live anyway (NW). Plus the poncho/groundsheet would allow the option to to set up a walled groundsheet if and only if really needed (cold winds whipping under the tarp, or heavy rain.

This question got started last month when I experienced some heavy condensation due to overnight fog. It got me thinking how I would dry gear out on a multi-night trip in cloudy, wet, foggy weather. Two obvious options would be a double walled tent or a full bivy paired with a VBL (the later being the preferred option for me). I recently threw away my 20 year old bivy due to delamination so that option is gone for cold winds, splash and fog condensation.

Condensation from external sources is different than condensation from your body, thru the down, and on top of your bag/quilt. Having a bivy on top of the bag with internal evaporation isn’t optimal, IMO. A bivy catches outside condensation but at the same time creates more inside.

A bivy catches outside condensation but at the same time creates more inside.

That’s been my experience as well, condensation on the inside of a full bivy on most nights, unless one uses a VBL. The big catch is that at best, VBL’s are only tolerable at lower temperatures. Using a VBL in the 40’s is something I’d prefer not to do, but below freezing it’s tolerable.

So for trips with prolonged condensing fog or wet with little or no sun, how about using a VBL along with a Zpacks poncho/groundsheet as more of a over-wrap or blanket to control outside condensation, rather than as an actual groundsheet?

If you get a spare moment…take a look at the flat size…it looks like maybe it is his attempt to do as you suggest?

Overall, I am happy with my poncho. The somewhat minor deficiencies aren’t worth spending $200 for improvements.

Last October I did a trip with a wonderful group of people and the weather forecast was mostly 24/7 rain with day time temps in the high 30’s to low 40’s. Given the dynamics of group travel I brought  GoreTex pants and jacket. Had to wear them 100% of the time. They were okay, but not optimal. Soon after that Sierra Designs had a sale with deep discounts on their cagoule and chaps. I like their focus on venting and they look promising. Haven’t used them enough for an opinion. But for most of my 3 season hiking I’ll stick with my poncho.

I have found no way to beat external condensation from fog and the like.  Everything gets wet: tarp, ground, trees.  So you have to expect your quilt is going to get wet as well.  Hopefully, you get some time to air it out.

I have found no way to beat external condensation from fog and the like.  Everything gets wet: tarp, ground, trees.  So you have to expect your quilt is going to get wet as well.  Hopefully, you get some time to air it out.

Yep.

Quality bags have water resistant shells that do help. I have a cuben quilt (both sides) that is water proof and I take it on most 3 season trips. Only problem is if I am camped and the ambient temperature is too cold, I can’t add down insulation layers because they get soaked from persperation.

We get a fair amount of external condensation around here.  It sounds like a cuben quilt would do the trick.  I hadn’t thought of that.  I have to assume it’s really wet and clammy though.  Is it?

It got me thinking how I would dry gear out on a multi-night trip in cloudy, wet, foggy weather.

I’ve been there and was extremely glad I took my synthetic EE Prodigy (now called Revelation Apex) on those trips.

I have to assume it’s really wet and clammy though. Is it?

Not at all. The material is thin Cuben so feels somewhat soft, not slick like a shelter. About 5 years ago I poked a hole in it with a finger nail when stuffing it into my pack, its that thin.

The footbox has a draw string closure for ventilation. Also there is a zipper along the footbox so I can open up flat like a bedroom quilt, which how I often use it. The  girth is narrower than most quilts, so it vents easily. Using it in the 30’s (F) takes some work with the straps and at those temps I usually take my Arc Specialist.

Below freezing I either take my zPacks quilt or my WM Ultralight. Below 20 I often combine my WM and Arc Specialist. When temps get around 10, I go to the desert instead. And that’s my entire inventory of bags/quilts. Haven’t bought anything new in several years.