Philmont’s bear safety rules and practices.

Gnawed armpits because they were wearing deodorant?  Lured by the smell of duct tape on a water bottle?

If the bears there are THAT bad I think I’d pass.

The last time I was in Yosemite in 2016, rangers were using paintball guns against opportunistic bears as negative reenforcement.  Maybe the leadership at Philmont needs to step up their bear management efforts.

@ David Why are we having this conversation in November?

@ Jeff. I think both of the anecdotes are hearsay and might be apocryphal.  That being said, the backpacker parking at Whitney Portal has a display of the wide variety of items bears have investigate as possibly edible or tried to eat including motor oil, propane canisters, aerosol can of Raid, container antifreeze etc. Bottom line, bears are curious and are attracted to anything that smells or looks like it might be food.

@ David. I personally think certain aspects of Philmont’s policy are arbitrary.

I witnessed a lot of damage at many of the backcountry and staffed camps of the soil and the trees where the bear cables have been erected. I attempted to have a conversation with Philmont staff about this issue and was stonewalled.  Bear boxes or hard sided bear canisters could be part of a different policy that could be equally effective but have less environmental impact, not to mention be consistent with the bear management practice of other land management agencies.

Philmont discourages tarps because they think tents are safer than tarps. I do not think there is any hard evidence to support that view in reference to bear attacks.  The only reason I can think of where a bear might have a predilection to coming under a tarp would be if the camper was cooking under or near his tarp.

Finally, some of the staffed camps have electrical deterrents on the outside walls of the buildings which is evidence to me that bears occasionally break into buildings.

Why are we having this conversation in November? Because crews going to Philmont in 2019 should be well into their shakedowns and training by now.

Why would Philmont make up arbitrary policies? What would they have to gain by them?

It may be for economic reasons why Philmont has not put in steel bear proof boxes to store food at half of their 770 campsites. Cables are probably much cheaper.

Bear canisters, I don’t believe you could get very much of Philmont’s food in a dozen of them.

Philmont’s policy of sleeping in tents with sewn in floors and doors is not to keep out the bears but rather to keep out other crawling slithering critters seeking warmth or whatever.

But that’s just been my experience.

Bear boxes would certainly be simpler. Perhaps they also see doing bear bags as part of teaching skills. Still, I’d prefer bear boxes and hope they replace cables with boxes.

When children are involved, you should expect the rules to be stricter than if it’s only adults. Part of the reason is that children are not able to consent to risk that adults can. The parents do give consent, but that isn’t the same as an adult accepting risk for himself.

Children are also less likely to follow rules than adults. Of course adults fail sometimes, too. Making the rules stricter gives a lower chance of bad things happening.

A lawsuit involving children will result in a higher liability than one involving adults.

I don’t fully agree with all of Philmont’s rules, but it’s their place and they set the rules. I’m not going to set a bad example for our scouts and tell them they can do it their way.

There are a thousand and one ways a bear can break into something: from canisters, to cars, to houses/dwellings. Philmont’s rules make sense for large groups visiting well used campsites where bears have an easy time finding something to eat/investigate (even if it is a carelessly stuffed and later dropped candy wrapper.)

Philmont may not be the perfect wilderness experience but it also offers other experiences most Scouts may not be exposed to in their world.  Horse rides, shooting, climbing, mining, blacksmithing, etc.  It is somewhat of a total experience.

Bear Bagging at Philmont is good training for Scouts because how many places will they backpack that have bear proof boxes?

I also believe we adults must follow Philmont’s policies even if we don’t know or understand the reason behind them because it is important for setting a good example for our youth. Let’s remain true to the Scout Oath.

Everyone going to Philmont should accept and follow all their rules and policies or perhaps Philmont is not for them.

I’m not suggesting people ignore Philmont’s policies, or bear safe guidelines in general.  I’m a certified LNT Trainer.  In 2016 I happily carried my heavy Garcia canister along 93 miles of the north end of JMT while I’ve seen posts here and elsewhere from a few individuals looking to “cheat” so they can save a pound or two.

My visceral, negative reaction to the OP was specific to the deodorant and duct tape stories, which one poster claims may be unusual or even apocryphal.  Fine.

I’ve never been to Whitney Portal.  And while I have plans to “section hike” the southern end of the JMT to complete the whole thing, it sounds like I’ll do it while avoiding the entire zone east of Whitney.

I’ve been to other areas with problem areas.  “Yellow-Yellow” was a black bear in the Adirondacks High Peaks area that knew how to break into Bear Vault canisters, and taught this skill to her cubs.  They could defeat a bear hang in minutes.  Only the Garcia canisters were approved for use in the Eastern High Peaks zone.

And as I mentioned, I’ve been in Yosemite camped just east of the Half Dome junction trail, when a ranger came through carrying among other things, a paintball gun, and warned us of problematic bear activity in the area.  I also camped in the infamous Lyell Canyon zone which is infamous for bear encounters.

It still seems to me that Philmont’s bear problems are beyond any experienced on public lands.  Maybe it’s due to the high concentration of kids.

All I’m saying is, if bears are that bad at Philmont, I would have second thoughts about going there or sending my son (or daughter) there.

The bears are not bad at Philmont. The bear rules are in place to prevent them from becoming a problem.

Thank you Jeffery

“I’ve been to other areas with problem areas. “Yellow-Yellow” was a black bear in the Adirondacks High Peaks area that knew how to break into Bear Vault canisters, and taught this skill to her cubs. They could defeat a bear hang in minutes.”

Jeff, Yellow-Yellow was the only bear to have been documented opening a bear can, regularly. She was killed without passing this skill on. Other bears have been known to chew through the bottoms of bear canisters or knock them on rocks over a rather tall cliff, but none have used Yellow-Yellow’s methode of simply biting the lock to unscrew it. She was not known for getting at hangs, more for breaking in to cabins, ranger stations and cars and was given a “death” sentence in 2005 along with instituting the bear canister rules. She disappeared for a year or two before figuring the canisters out. Here is her obituary: https://www.adirondackalmanack.com/2012/11/a-yellow-yellow-obituary.html
And an interesting article:
https://www.adirondackexplorer.org/stories/scientists-seek-bear-facts

I live in black bear country, Spring, Summer and early Autumn, the responsible folks have the weekly ritual of either storing garbage inside, or strapping down the lid of the garbage cans. Truckers Hitch works for me.

Bears remember what day is trash pickup day and make the rounds hitting the cans that provided a payout before and checking others just in case. A bear was killed three houses from me last August and his favorite houses got tickets for unsecured garbage, hazing was tried several times and in this case did not work, when the bear starting coming around daily and in the mid afternoon he was doomed.

Campsites and bear bag trees are no different if a bear gets food from a campsite they will return again and again, enough payout and they become less afraid and that is when problems begin.

Philmont’s back country bear procedures maybe a PIA to some but for us on Troop camps we follow the Bear-Muda Triangle plan as much as terrain allows.