Philmont Base weight ~12 lbs – and crew gear Ultra Light Plan

Lots of good stuff there.

What is the temp rating of your quilt?

Is the windscreen large enough for an 8 quart pot?

Would polycryo be a lighter, quieter, more compact footprint?

Do you need the funnel when it looks like you’re using canister stoves?

I think we’ll using multiple smaller water bladders to spread the pain rather than large bladders for 1 or 2 to carry.

Triplex seems like a very expensive option for scouts.
I’ll be following this thread.  I appreciate you putting this together!!

3d Map?

Actually, I think the 3d map would be a great idea.  I don’t need it, but the scouts in the crew may need a visual reference to help them learn about topo maps.  Keep in mind that most of the scouts going to Philmont may have never done any basic land navigation before.  This is an opportunity for them to learn these skills.  A 3d map may be very helpful for teaching.  I may order one for our 2 crews (2020) to help them learn.  It probably won’t go to Philmont with us, but it would be useful before we go.

I got a 20 degree top quilt for my son (who runs hot) and a 10 degree for me (I run cold) due to the high elevations and wind..

I need to update the list, I already subbed out the Tyvex for Polycro – got it at Home Depot, they sell sliding glass door covers for winter and I got two of those and cut them to size for the Triplex tents.

Our water plan is all 1 liter smart water bottles 4 per scout  with additional empties if we have to make it through a dry camp area.  Further we may drop most of the filters and go chemical treatment only, with a couple of emergency backup filters in the troop kit.

I have not tested the windscreen yet for the stove, but the pots arrive tonight and I will post findings after it test it for situational awareness for all for both the Keith Titanium Ti8301 6 Liter Pot and the Fire Maple FMC-215 8 Liter Pot. I also plan to build insulators for the pots to help with heat retention and protect the scouts from burns. Note: ended up going with the 5.8 Liter 2 x Evernew Titanium Non-Stick 5800ml Pot Set (ECA429), which only weight 19 ounces.

I plan to drop the funnel or keep it for rapid water acquisition, once we confirm that iso/propane will work in the configuration, with windscreen and large pot at high elevation.  I got the Kovea Spider stove due to the fact that that it has a heated tube to help with vaporization of fuel in cold climates and it has a wider base for heavier loads.  It is also safer for scouts with the white gas flare ups you get with Whisper Lite and others. Additionally if you believe the rumors online Kovea is the source for many other stoves with brand names you would recognize.

The 3D terrain relief map is a training aid for the scouts, as someone above already stated most scouts orienteering skills are pretty limited.  Especially in the high desert.

Also, I got a lot of this gear used, by watching forums here,  ebay, mass drop and Reddit ultralitegear.

I got the Plexamid for me used, I got the Triplex used, I got both packs used from HMG (ebay) I like the HMG 4400 Southwest the best, as it comes with the most durable Dyneema and is waterproof and meets the Philmont requirements for a 70 Liter bag.  I am still on a quest for the second Triplex and a 12’ X 12’ Dyneema DCF .73 or higher Dining Tarp.  A lot of folks buy these Zpacks tents and don’t have the budget to kept them after their quest, and now that TarpTents has come out with their Li line: Aeon Li, Stratosphere Li, Notch Li. , there is finally some competition for Zpacks, that didn’t exist before.   Also BA is coming out with the Tiger Wall UL2 in Dyneema in the spring, which will put more options on the table for everyone to consider. Suspect this will put price pressure on vendors to lower costs for those who want a free standing tent verses the trekking pole/ 12 stake layout of most DCF tents today.  Within a year or so, you will see a bow wave of Chinese and Korean DCF products as they get in on the game.  Taiwan already has the capability and i found lots of the smaller interior gear bags online – just haven’t pulled the trigger on those yet and I want to support US manufacturing and will pay for the quality that usually brings.  I may be forced to buy the DCF tarp offsource, as I have not been able to source one domestically yet….

@SFOldManClan
Sounds like you are well on your way to accomplishing a lightweight Philmont trek.

I have never used my Kovea Spider with a pot so big, and I often use a short windscreen from TrailDesigns with my Spider. That being said, if the diameter of the pot is fairly large, and you add a windscreen, I personally would start to worry about heat reflected back from the bottom of the pot damaging the stove itself.

@Btolley

Thanks or the review.   I would be interested in your Korea stove setup, specifically the TD windscreen.  I will try and post a picture of mine tonight..

Notes on Troop gear:

• I would avoid the 2.5 gallon water containers.  Instead, I would make sure every member of the crew has water capacity to carry 5-6L.  That way, you don’t have one crew member trying to wrestle 22 pounds of sloshing water.  Once you have your itinerary, you’ll know where you have dry camps and can plan around them, so you are only using your max capacity for dry camps.
• the Kovea spider worked great for us.  nice choice.

Replacements for Philmont gear:

• definitely bring your own tarp.  it made a huge difference for us in weight and pack size.
• skip poles if people on your crew use trekking poles.
• consider having eating bowls (rather than plates) and spoons as crew gear.  we used small Rubbermaid bowls with lids and collapsible sporks.  total weight was about 1 pound. having them as crew gear really made clean up and bear bagging easier.  10/10 would do again.
• just use the Philmont bear bags and rope.  it is too much hassle to try to use something else.

Do you need to strap poles together or is standard trekking pole height enough?

We will make Fozzils Bowlz and spoons /sporks crew gear.

In camp, we tied 2 poles together for each end.  But, when caught in one of the legendary mid-day downpours, we just used one pole on each end and get the tarp up quickly so we could get the crew into shelter.

@ SFOldmanClan

https://www.traildesigns.com/products/vari-vent-windscreens

The 4 inch high one works fine with my small .95, 1.3 and 2.0 liter pots.

Cheers!

We were scheduled to go July 2018.  My feedback is based on research, because we didn’t get to go after all.  That being said I like and recognize where you are headed.  Correct me if I’m wrong – you are looking for the lightest possible kit for yourself, and you are going to help out the crew by lightening up what you can.  We had 23 scheduled to go, and the crew I was on had 4 advisors and 7 scouts.

Most scouts were going to rely on Philtents, and we were going to use their tarp and pots.  I found the Philmont issued cooking utensils reasonably lightweight.  Here is a spreadsheet I used to calculate the crew gear weights, which ended up being 2.5lbs per scout and 1.2lbs per advisor.  This wasn’t done-done, and I’m sure there would have been some last-minute horse-trading, but I think it’s still valid.  The second tab also shows what we were contemplating for the crew FAK – 5 of the advisors were just back from Wilderness First Aid – we probably would have whittled this down before the trek started.

Not sure how to upload a spreadsheet so here’s a link to a Google Docs file.  IM me if you want the xls version:  https://drive.google.com/file/d/1BlZ3dBqgOR1Xd7TGogANubqVl4i4WBe_/view?usp=sharing

A smaller crew may force the advisors to carry more crew gear.  We had embraced the idea that scouts could carry more, and would be stronger after 10 days of hiking whereas us middle-aged and older advisers would not be stronger and should carry less to keep up with the teenagers.  From the shakedown hikes, I can tell you some of our crew would have been really heavy, but they are strong kids.  I tried to share lightweight options with all, but most of the scouts and parents seemed to ignore the suggestions.  Not everyone will spring for high-end gear that they might not think they will ever use again.  A couple of scouts came to the pack check and left with some homework, but in the end I deemed them all ready to go.

@btolley
That is really nice setup!

I tested the Keith Titanium Ti8301 Pot – 6.0 Liter

tonight on the Kovea Spider Stove and on the Titanium Flat Cat Gear Windscreen. It worked great with a 200 ozs of water + ~32 ozs of Titanium Pot, MSR Titan Titanium .9Liter Pot and my Snow Peak 450 Titanium cup. Everything fits with a lot of “Scout Slop” to spare. I took a ton of pictures, which I will try and post

@tagiam

Thanks for the notes on the gear.

Notes on Troop gear:

• I would avoid the 2.5 gallon water containers.  Instead, I would make sure every member of the crew has water capacity to carry 5-6L.  That way, you don’t have one crew member trying to wrestle 22 pounds of sloshing water.  Once you have your itinerary, you’ll know where you have dry camps and can plan around them, so you are only using your max capacity for dry camps.
  • Plan is to use 6 Smart Water bottles and “load balance” across the whole troop. 2  SWB’s always “loaded” and four empty that we can fill for dry camps, also plan to eat the dinner meal that day near water before moving into the dry camp.
• the Kovea spider worked great for us.  nice choice.
  • I’m a bit of gear snob, but this stove really surprised me, very happy with the performance and the price point of the Kovea Spider when combined with the Flat Cat Gear Screen – no issues with large heavy pots and very stable. 

Replacements for Philmont gear:

• definitely bring your own tarp.  it made a huge difference for us in weight and pack size
  • Looking for sources for a good .74 DCF Tarp with Tie outs and Trekking Pole Receivers.
• skip poles if people on your crew use trekking poles.
  • We are all using Trekking Poles.
• consider having eating bowls (rather than plates) and spoons as crew gear.  we used small Rubbermaid bowls with lids and collapsible sporks.  total weight was about 1 pound. having them as crew gear really made clean up and bear bagging easier.
  • I am educating the old school guys that this doesn’t violate the Philmont Backcountry Cook Method.
• just use the Philmont bear bags and rope.  it is too much hassle to try to use something else.
  • Agreed.  

For a higher pitch on one end, so the Scouts could get under the tarp more easily, we used Black Diamond Pole Link Converters to combine two hiking poles.

These come standard as part of the Mega Lite pyramid kit. And, usually once climbing season starts, BD and other vendors sell them separately.
Cheers.

We use Philmont’s bear rope but take out own bear bags made of 1.9 ounce rip-stop nylon in bright primary colors so we can distinguish ours bags on bear cables with two or more other crews using Philmont’s all the same color bags. We also use our own oops cord of 3mm 500 lb-test braided nylon cord with reflective strands so we can find our first aid kit or personal meds in the middle of the night.

@slbear

I am personally going to go a light as possible. My son is also going to mirror my gear with exceptions for crew tent and crew stove.  Our crew is small, 3 adults and 6 Scouts, so every ounce counts. ..  I was able to download your spreadsheet, and yes the FAK was pretty extensive, Thank you,!

I completed Wilderness FA  training last year and plan to do a re-fresher in March with the other two adult members of our trek.  4 of our scouts are star athletes (semi-pro soccer in a international league, lacrosse and wrestling for the others) My son is on the opposite end of the spectrum, full time gamer, who doesn’t have the best BMI, but does well on hikes, thanks to swimming.  I’m trying to get our adult advisors (all over 50, one triathlete, one Army SF guy, and one civilian)  as light as possible too, so we can hang with these young studs!  I dropped Bourbon from my diet and already lost some weight, it tough, when your over 50 doing this stuff!

Also trying to instill some discipline on the sleep schedule,  bed before dusk and on the trail at dawn.

@moonshine

I may get DCF bear bags for just to drop a couple more LBS and they are bright blue, so they would stand out pretty good.

Bob Shuff,

“Should we dedicate (dining fly) stakes?”  Yes, you need 10 dedicated stakes just for the fly. And 3 25-foot 3mm cords for it. I also carry a 25-foot 1.5 mm cord for my clothes and sleeping bag drying line.

“Suggest each bring their own food bag.” Food, cooking and bear bagging is communal (crew), not individual.  Everyone does need a small personal (individual) smellables Ditty Bag to consolidate, remove and bear bag all their smellables; first aid kit, meds, toothbrush & paste, mole skin, foot powder, sun screen, lip balm, soap, duct tape, etc.

“Trash bags”  Philmont issues large trash bags to collect and hold meal packaging and such trash until the next staffed camp. But you need several one-gallon re-sealable freezer-grade plastic bags to keep your maps, Crew Leader’s Copy and TP  dry in. Also have hand sanitizer in bag with TP.

You don’t cook and clean-up in dry camps so you only need enough drinking water to sustain you from your last water source to the next. You can easily get by with only enough water containers for 4 quarts per crew member, drinking from 2 one-quart bottles daily and a container for 2+ additional quarts to get your through dry camps. Many use lightweight 3-quart collapsible hydration bladders.

Philmont issues two 8-quart pots, one with a lid for cooking and one without for washing dishes. We only carry one pot and lid to boil water to sanitize dishes and cook food, then wash dishes in it with just cold water.

We only boil the appropriate amount of water according the meal packet directions; 1-1/2 cups, 2 cups, whatever, times the number of packets and use Nalgenes to measure that amount of clear untreated water to the boil. This saves time and fuel rather than boiling a lot of extra water for washing. Sanitize all cooking and eating utensils in a rolling boil for at least 3 seconds, then pour in all the meal packets to cook. After all food is consumed and utensils licked clean, wash in cold water with Campsuds. Then rinse in cold water.

I ended up returning the Keith Titanium 6 liter (32 ounces) and Fire Maple FMC-215 8 Liter Pot (28 ounces) above, which are heavy and went with this ultra light option -2 x Evernew Titanium Non-Stick 5800ml Pot Set (ECA429) – which came in at ~ 19.6 ounces.

Also finally sourced a Dyneema tarp, ended up with the Zpacks Hammock Tarp with Doors. very light weight (9 ounces) and easy to setup.