Permethrin on cuben fiber and other gear?

[Yoyo]

Lately, I’ve been thinking of switching to a tarp without a bug net.  I’m curious–is Permethrin recommended on cuben fiiber?  Would it damage my tarp? Additionally, can I spray it on stuff like sleeping bags, etc.?  I know it’s recommended for clothing (socks, shorts, shirt, etc.), but I’ve never heard of it being used on gear.

[Ken Thompson]

It bonds to fibers. Nothing to stick to on cuben.

[Ryan Jordan]

From a Sawyer FAQ:

Cuben Fiber is a high tech laminated material. The top layer is polyester which permetherin will bond to; however, permethrin will not bond to the inner layers of Cuben Fiber. Therefore, permethrin cannot be applied to Cuben Fiber the same way it is applied to other fibers. It will (depending on the size of the material) probably take a few “wettings” to get the necessary 3 ounces dose of permetherin onto the fabric.

To apply permethrin correctly use this process spray the object, let it dry, spray again, let it dry, and spray again. If unabsorbed permethrin drips off the Cuben Fiber catch the drippings and reuse the permethrin. Apply as evenly as possible to the Cuben Fiber until the 3 ounce application is fully absorbed.

[Ken Thompson]

Hybrid cuben.

[James Marco]

Yup, it bonds weakly to most polyester type materials, including fleeces and polyester shirts. But, it takes several applications as Ryan says. It bonds pretty well with nylon, cotton and wool. Check your manufacturing labels to see if the shell is made from some sort of nylon, Pertex for example. Chances are you can use permethrin on it, but you might need to remove any DWR first, then replace it after…not sure about this…too many different formulas with DWRs.  But after I did my down sweater, I needed to redo the DWR because it wetted out much easier. I cannot identify the actual cause, though. It might not have been permethrin.

It will bond with down/feathers. Soaking your bag also helps against moths, worms and other insects that can live in down (and actually damage it.) But be careful with the amount you use. Down can absorb enough to make the permethrin a potential allergen. A very dilute solution is recommended … like .125% (note the decimal point.)  After soaking for about an hour in normal HOT tap water, you can squeeze out the excess, rinse, and squeeze out the excess again, then wash it normally with down wash. I do this out of hand because I worry about bed bugs, fleas and such getting in my bedding. Note that the effects on insects are cumulative over the contact time. Any bugs that get in my bedding are usually killed within 12-24 hours…but it will not save you from an occasional spider, mosquito or chigger bite. Permethrin is *not* fast acting at low concentrations. A down jacket is the same, but it is rare to need one at the temps that bugs are usually active. Again, I do this out of hand, anyway. I am not sure if the DWR inhibits the Permethrin.

I don’t usually bother with my pack or stuff sacks. Nor my underwear or socks.  Silnylon may or may not be treatable. It depends on the type of silicone process they use, though I have had good results with old tarps.   Spectra does not bond with it. Lines and ropes, Cuben (DCF), HDPE, etc do not bond strongly enough to bother with or, as Ryan says, multiple applications are usually needed on cuben (DCF) cloth.  Though my cheap rock sacks get a dousing whenever I do any other piece of gear.  My hiking shirts are usually polyester, soo, they get done a couple times per year. This is ok, about the time it wears off, I am out of bug season till it starts picking up again at the end of summer.

 

[Yoyo]

That’s interesting to hear that permethrin bonds to cuben.  Although, adding 3 oz of the stuff doesn’t sound appealing.  That’s a lot of extra weight!  :)   Probably lighter to just bring the bug net.  In any case, I’m curious if the vapors emitted by permethrin would likely deter mosquitoes from entering my tarp.  Is this worthwhile or not?  I typically treat my shirts/shorts, etc., with permethrin so that mosquitoes won’t land on me while I’m hiking.  Curious what deterrent it will provide for my shelter.

[Jerry Adams]

You don’t need permethrin on tent because bugs can’t bite through it.  Same thing with sleeping bag.

If you’re sleeping, and worried about mosquitoes, you need some sort of netting over you.  I use a 36 inch circle of netting.  Or a netting head net.

 

[Jerry Adams]

“I’m curious if the vapors emitted by permethrin would likely deter mosquitoes from entering my tarp.”

I thought it was like permethrin on pants would keep ticks from walking on them.  Or if fabric had permethrin on it, mosquitoes wouldn’t bite through it.  The zone of vapor that inhibits bugs is close to the fabric.

[Ryan Jordan]

By the time a product is treated with permethrin, there’s no significant vapor emitted.

Permethrin is a contact insecticide, and it kills insects that contact it (because the permethrin molecules are absorbed into the body tissues) or eat it.

[James Marco]

David, 3oz is the *cut* of permethrin, I believe. You have 3oz:128oz or around a 2.3% concentration. Note that bonding things in solution is a little tricky. For example, Sawyer is around .5%. Since permethrin has an affinity to the substrate, you find that it will hit the necessary 3oz on cotton. The remaining solution will have less than a .1% concentration as the permethrin bonds with the cotton depleting it. Water is a highly interesting substance. It is composed of acid and base molecules( H and OH.) It will attach, dissolve into so to speak, to most anything in various degrees. (It will actually dissolve into glass and gold slightly due to this chemical make-up. And, yes, the gold or silicon will also dissolve into the water.) So yes, it will take multiple treatments and/or a good long time (like 24 hours in a warm bath) to carry the permethrin into poly. It will also do the same with Spectra, but this is actually useless for our purposes since the concentration never hits a LD (lethal dose) for insects.

Ryan is correct. While everything has a vapour pressure, it varies a lot. Usually the loose bonding that permethrin has to cloths overcomes any vapour pressure (not strictly true, but close enough for our purposes. It does not release a LD in vapour.) This is why it is not listed as a “insect repellent” like DEET.

Poly only weakly bonds to permethrin. Generally speaking, this means it also washes out quickly. Even after treatment, it may not retain enough to last more than 4 or 5 washings (rain storms, if you will.) Like I say, even my hiking shirts(poly, fleece) need multiple treatments per year to maintain effectiveness.

I was once told a story by a gent that used a very heavy concentration of permethrin on his cloths (I believe he was in the military and was wearing cotton in VN.) He related that a mosquito landed on his pants and bit him. After a few seconds she removed her proboscis and started wiping it with her legs. She had lost all interest in biting, even though she showed no signs of being full. Not exactly a repellent, but close enough for me not to worry about the difference. However, the mosquito may have injected an anticoagulant before this, soo, it was likely an itchy bite, anyway.

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