Olympic UltraLite Talaria Backpack

[Ian]

Didn’t want to derail another thread so starting a new one.

[Ian]

Interesting looking pack.

https://www.olympicul.com/products/backpacks/talaria/

I see photos of both shock cord and mesh securing a Z lite pad to the pack.

My questions for Lester:

Q1 If the mesh isn’t currently offered, could it be added?

Q2 would either the shock cord or mesh hold an entire Z lite pad, or has the one that is pictured been shortened?

Q3 can it be ordered without a belt?

Q4 can the front pocket be customized so it reaches the top of the pack?

Q5 how do you secure the shaft of an ice axe?  From looking at your pictures, I’m guessing I would use a piece of shock cord to one of the side compression loops, but perhaps you do it another way.

Q6 one picture shows a stretch pocket sewn onto a shoulder strap and others don’t.  Is that available as an option?

Cool looking pack and best of luck with your business.

[Lester Moore]

Thanks Ian for starting the new thread – good call.. and thanks for your encouragement. Your questions are answered below:

Q1: A shock cord pad retention strap on the back panel is standard. Two mesh pockets (with open corners) is a $15 options that adds at least half an ounce.

Q2: The standard shock cord strap would allow more room for a full thickness Z-lite pad, ans such a pad would have the required thickness to stay put under the straps. However, I’ve only tested the Talaria with a 10×20 inch Z-lite, not a full pad, which would be much thicker. While the mesh pockets have some give to them, it’s hard to fit more than an 1/8″ full length pad folded in sixths.

Q3: No hipbelt is an option for no cost. A removable hip belt costs $5.

Q4: The front pocket could be easily extended, cost would be $0. I would stop an inch short of the level of the shoulder straps so that it’s easy to get a good roll top closure when the pack is lightly loaded.

Q5: I usually attach a short piece of shock cord someplace above the ice axe loop. I’ll be adding an option for a fixed ice ax lashing point with a cam buckle for $5 (these buckles work well for axes).

Q6: Integrated stretch mesh shoulder strap pockets are $15 each.

I’m in the process of getting these and other options up on the website, along with photos and videos,  so I appreciate your patience.

 

[James Marco]

Thanks, Lester. Good call on the move…

[James Marco]

Lester, there are several places for a general improvement of the pack, IMHO. DO NOT take these as anything other than suggestions. The wife tells me my writing tends to be sound like a powerful positive or negative, and, you have some really nice things going on. SUGGESTIONS…

I have probably a dozen packs in my gear room. All have been rather heavily used at some point. The others were given away, donated,(a half dozen or so) or simply left out with a sign that says FREE (three or four.) When I determine a packs use for me, it must be comfortable (for a week of hiking,) light (<8oz-SUL, <16oz-UL, <2pounds-Lightweight,) and durable enough to hold up for a season in the ADK’s performing various activities (canoes, climbing/scrambling, hiking.) I do not beat a back (I need to use it again,) nor am I gentle (babying a piece of gear doesn’t happen in the woods.)

Anyway, we briefly discussed the male/female clips on the top of the pack. With an over-strap, they work pretty well to keep the top edges & corners out of range of snags with a fairly smooth/non-snagging top. When scrambling(taking off the pack setting it ahead of you, doing a bit of a climb, reaching back to pick up the pack again,)it makes a very nice handle to grab the top of the pack, too.

Cords: Loose or even fairly tight compression cords on the sides of packs simply do not work the best in a heavily brushed environment. While of little importance to western style packing on open trails, they often catch branches and snags. The “D” rings you are using can catch. Pushing through a blow-down, I broke one when a branch went through it on a Murmur. (Not to mention needing to remove the pack because I was not in a position to back up.) The loop/mounts have fewer problems, but they can increase friction. For compression, anything on the sides of the pack can also pull the pack into a more cylindrical shape, making it uncomfortable to carry. Cinching around the front pouch/front of the pack works better by avoiding this problem, and, it allows a dry bag top closure without the side attachments. As you say, a simple “Y” strap over the top works well, and doubles as a carry for bear cans, wet rain jackets, wet tarps, etc. Overall, the more “D” shape is a bit more comfortable to carry than a cylinder shape, similar to the design of the HMG Southwest(3 ways to close the top, really?) The more “stream-lined” shape is a LOT easier to push through/around trail obstacles.

The “Y” strap can be a problem trying to carry a bear can. It often requires a carry sleeve, or, indents to keep from sliding. And it can be noisy. Nothing worse than a lighter knocking on a bear can right behind your head for 20 miles. But, this is more of a bear can problem. Often, the only solution in the field is a layer or two of wrinkled duct tape, or, a high tension that can endanger buckle mounts…or both.

The pockets are good, except you want to make them straight across. Keep the height, but the angle can sometimes catch on scrub. Yeah, it doesn’t look as sexxy, it works better. The overall placement is excellent! Low as it can go means easier to reach, which is a fail point on HMG packs. (I can reach a bottle, I cannot put it back.) But, like the pack bottom and front pouch bottom, the bottom needs to be reinforced with heavy cloth.

Mesh. Overall the 3D mesh works, but doesn’t have as good elasticity as other kinds. For example, your pad keeper should allow between 1/2″ and 3″ of pad to be used. I am guessing it does not from your comments. While cord works well to carry a pad, it doesn’t supply the proper support/joining between a pack and pad while hiking. You can do better with more elastic pad keepers and likely the front pouch. The pad keepers enclose the perimeter of the sleeping pad tending to lock in each corner as you walk. Normally, there is a torsional (twisting on diagonal corners) stress that means the pad will want to move a bit with each step. While the cord mounts work fine for holding the pad, this means they can also allow a certain amount of freedom increasing the tendency for the pack to collapse with loads. Compression is one way to avoid this. Another way is to use the pad keepers enclosing the perimeter of the upper 1/3 and lower 1/3 of the pad. This increases the pull (support) on the pack with each step and not allowing the pad to buckle (collapse) under loads by supporting the pad. Follow? The pad and pack work together increasing overall stiffness.

A good virtual frame (using a sleeping pad) will require at least 3 layer Luna/Nightlite pad. This will measure about 1-3/4″ thick. A more supportive pad torso pad can be made from 5 layers(~50″long and about 2-1/2″ thick) and a nice comfortable for sleeping 60″(5′) sleeping pad will require about 6 layers at about 3″thick. Of course, a sit pad, or 2 layer minimal “chair” pad will require less thickness. A simple change that should not increase production costs as it is added on, and increases overall versatility and comfort of hiking/camping. The elastic edging will need to be strongly zig-jagged, though.

The shoulder straps are excellent at the wider width. I would suggest they do not need as much padding, perhaps 1/8″.

The hip belt also doesn’t need much padding. Both are excellent on the Talaria. As you know, bounce caused by walking is often exaggerated by too much padding.

The Torso straps only need to hold slight weight…just enough to keep the shoulder straps from slipping off your shoulders. I often substitute a 1/2″ ribbon/buckle for these.

Anyway, a really good looking pack at a nice weight. My hopes for a good future, Lester!

[Lester Moore]

Thanks James for your comments – there’s no substitute for experience, especially when it’s someone else’s. And it’s always enjoyable to go deep into the weeds of feature design details.

Eventually the Talaria will have two younger siblings, including a SUL pack under 8 ounces (a combo of 70d and 30d fabrics) and a LW framed pack under 24 ounces (a combo of 210d and 330d fabrics), all made for mostly on-trail and moderate off-trail use. Two other pack’s I’d like to design include a LW internal frame alpinist pack (under 2 lbs or so likely with 210-330d and 500d+) and a small UL fastpack-daypack (under 16 ounces, 70d and 210d).

As for straps, cords and closures, it’s about the same weight and complexity to build a male-female closure that’s separate from the side compression straps versus a down-the-side closure that’s integrated with the side compression straps. You make a good point about small loops catching on brush, though I have yet to experience it as the side compression straps usually hold the side loops tightly against the pack (but then again, I generally avoid heavy bushwhacking too). These loops would not be present on an alpinist pack or on the LW framed pack, opting for traditional horizontal straps with ladder locks or SR buckles instead.

Regarding barreling of the pack into a cylinder shape due to heavy side compression, this has been a concern in the design of a LW framed pack, where the pack is likely to be loaded heavier and stuffed more stiffly with gear. I like your idea of accross-the-front compression – I’ve used at least one backpack where this worked well. However, I have yet to experience significant barreling with the Talaria, perhaps because of the way I “cloud load” the pack without any stuff sacks, and perhaps because I never cinch down the side compression straps much (unless for day hiking). Or perhaps with UL weights, a little barreling is not noticeable to me (YMMV) and I’ve been unknowingly ignoring it?

As for mesh, I prefer the poly mesh for the large front pocket (OWF medium hand mesh # MESHMHBLK) as it’s easy to see through to view the contents of the pocket. For the pad pockets on the back panel, I made one pack using Seattle Fabrics 3945 Mini Mesh, which has only moderate stretch but a nice soft feel against your back and is only 2.8 oz/sqyd. For a pack I’m making this weekend, I’ll be using the Quest Leno Mesh (5.1 oz/sqyd) as it has more stretch to it, even though it’s heavier. This latest pack will also have open corners on the two pad pockets to make it easier to insert a pad into the pockets. The combination of leno mesh and open pocket corners, along with elastic stretch-stitched along the edges, will allow for much thicker pads to be inserted.

I like your idea of combining pad pockets with shock cord pad retention. The shock cord could be placed horizontally across the middle of the back panel to help keep the pad from buckling or barreling. And the presence of the cord may allow for slightly shorter pockets to be constructed without compromising pad fixity to the back panel. While I like the lower weight and removability of a shock cord pad retention system, it does require a stiffer pad (like the TAR Z-lite) as flimsy pads like the 1/8″ GG ThinLight constantly ride upward between your back and the backpack with such a system.

For shoulder strap foam padding, I find that 1/8″ is a bit thin for weights much above 15 lbs (YMMV). The 1/4″ foam seems about perfect for up to 20 lbs (or more) and it just barely fits under my sewing machine presser foot :-) For a SUL backpack, 1/8″ foam is the way to go, along with no spacer mesh on the shoulder straps.

The Talaria has no padding in the hip belt, even with the belt wing I’ve been using lately. The wing is just 210d fabric folded over on itself to distribute the pull force of the hip belt along a wider stretch of the seam of the backpack.

As for the sternum strap, the SUL pack will use 1/2″ webbing with minimal hardware to save weight. For the Talaria, I often hang my hands over the sternum strap and this puts a bit of strain on it – plus the 3/4″ hardware I’ve been using is convenient and works slickly.

[Eric Blumensaadt]

Interesting but way too much mesh on the front. I’m tired of repairing torn mesh.

[James Marco]

OK, I hated to think I was pissing you off. Mostly it looks like an excellent UL pack.

I am not really looking for a new pack right away. I have a couple Murmurs(2012, 2015), an old G5, a Miniposa (2005/6) that continue to serve me well for my needs. Just offering some stuff that came up during design critiqes of different packs with a few different manufacturers. There is nothing that is really “new under the sun” with backpacks, just different materials. Looking forward to your new packs, whenever you get around to it.

Snags. I don’t do a lot of it, but blow-downs in bad places can sometimes mean a 1/4 mile trek out and around…often through heavy scrub. Happens often enough to cause me some worry about snags. I can usually just walk around or over a blow down or two, but we have a few “down burst” storms in high winds (~50mph) coming through the hills. These intensify through valleys/over hills to tornado levels but usually only extend about 50-100yd from the center. Often, everything will be leveled in those areas with tree’s piling on trees making them impassible without a lot of clearing. Makes good firewood, though, and there is often a campsite or two in the area that stays for many years.

Padding, yes. You need a few weeks to get used to a pack with little or no padding. Not for most first timers, though…they LIKE padding. 1/4″ is the most I can use. 1/8″ is much better.

Yeah, you could use 1/4 length pad keepers with a cord in the center. That would keep weight down. Anyway, food for thought…

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