New Montbell clothing – Versalite and Tachyon

[Andy Berner]

Versatile is now using Gore Windstopper 10 denier

Montbell Versalite Jacket

Montbell Versalite Pants

Montbell Tachyon Parka

 

[Ryan Smith]

6oz with pit zips sounds like a great option.

[Brad Rogers]

Interesting…….if I remember correctly (and I may not) Gore Windstopper, though not marketed as waterproof was actually the original Gore Tex without the PU coating to protect against body oils.  This resulted in far greater breath ability but a relatively short lifespan.

[Eric Blumensaadt]

Yeah, but is it “waterproof/breathable” for a 4 hour rain?

Nope. So why would one want it? “Wind shirts and jackets are just extra weight if you already have a good WPB parka.

[Ken Thompson]

and a waterproof parka is overkill sometimes.

[Cameron M]

I gave up on my Versalite jacket. It fit fine, had all the features, and suited my use as primarily a wind jacket but suitable for rain. It seemed like the perfect answer. However the zipper was too small and a total pain to engage. I just could not take it anymore and gave up, ordering a Helium as its replacement. The Montbell people on the phone admitted to many similar complaints. I hope that they changed out the zipper on this one.

[Adam Kilpatrick]

I’d be interested to see CFM of the new tachyon. I love my Tachyon pullover (7D, bought in Japan in 2013).

[BCap]

My versalite wetted out in the first rainstorm I had it in.  I like a lot of things about the jacket, and now that I know that I shouldn’t place it in the same class as a good hardshell I am a lot more zen about it.  But it ain’t breathable like a wind shirt and it ain’t really waterproof like a rain jacket.  Perfect for day hikes in dry mountain climates where rain is expected to be short lived (and I have a fleece to buffer moisture).  Just my 2 cents.

[JCH]

So far I’m happy with my (now old style) Versalite jacket and pants.  I am seriously not a fan of the new pocket placement.  I guess it makes sense for some.

I don’t expect the versalite to withstand days-long rain events…I have a 3L gore-tex parka for that.

[Brad Rogers]

I didn’t like the “old” Versalite either.  It had great features and was light but I also found it to wet out quickly, and even before that wasn’t comfortable against the skin.

I have not found any WP/B shell breathable enough to replace a windshirt. I haven’t tried everything out there but have tried 3 Layer eVent and GTX Active.  I sweat a lot anyways and figure that can’t be good for my $$$ hard shell anyways so I bring a windshirt (2011 Houdini) and am more comfortable with it when I need wind, but not rain protection

[Adam Kilpatrick]

Seems there are new Japan Market Tachyon’s and wind products also. Instead of a pullover, they now have a 7D hooded full zip. It also has venting in the arm pits-no zips, very simple.

I’ve found my Tachyon (which should be ~9.7CFM) to be adequate, with using the short pullover zip, loosening the base, taking hood off, etc. Supposedly this is an updated fabric… hopefully they’ve gotten more CFM out of it and not just HH (which was adequate for me. Somewhere around 200). Weight is about the same as before.

Here is the Japan specific page:

http://webshop.montbell.jp/goods/disp.php?product_id=1103285

 

[RockyJ]

I’m about to order the new style versatile, never tried it before though. I have the windbreaker parka now and it looks good and fits good but besides that I’m not a very big fan of it. It beads water decently well for a windbreaker…except for a 4 inch square patch of fabric near the logo. Literally a drop of water will hit it and soak through to the other side instantly. I guess no DWR treatment in that spot.

I’ve had it for 2 months now and Montbell said they would refund me under their warranty program, so at least they have good customer service. I’ll try and remember to report back here with versatile opinions once I get to test it out.

[Christoph Blank]

Does anyone know how the garments compare? The figures look nice.

Montbell.ch still has the old one:

2.5-layer DRY-TEC™ technology
(Water resistance : 20,000 mm / Breathability : 15,000 g/m²/ 24 hrs)
15-denier Ballistic Airlight rip-stop nylon

vs

2-layer GORE® WINDSTOPPER® Garments with Water Resistance
[Water resistance: 30,000mm, Breathability: 43,000g/m2/24hrs]
10-denier Ballistic Airlight rip-stop nylon

Richard Nisley maybe? I would be interested in your opinion.

Montbell describes the jacket as waterPROOF, while windstopper is considered water resistant only?
This is confusing – I’m looking for a lightweight 2.5L rain jacket with pit zips.

[Richard Nisley]

The WINDSTOPPER membrane is more breathable than eVent. I measured 2.16 CFM average for WINDSTOPPER vs .53 CFM average for event. They are both adequately waterproof when seam sealed and have fresh C6 DWR. Only recently did Gore allow manufacturers to seam seal WINDSTOPPER.

The WINDSTOPPER membrane has no oleophobic coating and will lose waterproofness from oil contamination. It will have to be washed frequently to maintain waterproofness. The eVent membrane has an oleophobic coating to prevent oil contamination and a resultant loss of waterproofness.

All garments discussed in this thread rely on C6 DWR. They will rapidly wet out from either abrasion or sustained rain, progressively reduce breathability, and cause evaporation chilling from the saturated surface.

[Michael K]

Richard, can you please explain to us how oil contamination would lead to a lack of waterproofness.  My uneducated mind would think that oil contamination of the membrane would lead to less breathability since the small holes of the breathable membrane would be clogged, but I would not think that it would lead to less waterproofness.  Does the lack of waterproofness once the membrane is contaminated stem from oil attracting water to stick to it and eventually absorb through the membrane?

[Christoph Blank]

Richard Nisley, thank you very much for the explanation. Under these circumstances, how practical is the versalite gear? Meaning, will I run into problems too often or will it be alright with care even under longer exposure to rain? I can’t interpret how this would look like.

Especially since Montbell decided to market it as waterproof – I guess they have to be certain to a particular point. But when would you take it, when not?

Thanks a lot for your insight!

[Eric Blumensaadt]

Ken,

I can agree a waterproof parka can be “overkill” sometimes, that sometimes being a very cool and windy day hike where I know there will be no rain or snow.

But on a backpacking trip I want a WPB rain parka . My eVent parka breathes well enough to double as a “wind shirt” so it gets packed, but no wind shirt. The concept of making items do double duty whenever possible is now becoming my mantra as I age into deep geezerhood at 75.

So when I backpacked the Grand Canyon North Rim-to-South Rim last November I carried only my eVent parka and used it only once for rain for 15 minutes while making breakfast. But I did use it starting out on the North Rim when it was 45 F. and I needed a hard shell over my down vest. And cool nights brought it out as well.

[Richard Nisley]

Michael,

WINDSTOPPER is the same material as first generation Gore-Tex with the exception it is stretched more to create larger pores. When body oils and sweat comes into contact with the PTFE laminate, the PTFE becomes temporarily altered in such a way as to be rendered non-waterproof. I am not familiar with the associated chemistry other that the oil / sweat mixes with dirt and that combination has more surface energy than ePFTE.

[Richard Nisley]

Christoph,

The new Versalite is waterproof when new or after a thorough cleaning and reapplication of C6. If your trips are front-country or no more than 2-3 days in the backcountry you should be OK. The new Versalite is a combo rain jacket / wind shirt and it doesn’t excel in either fish / fowl role.

For longer trips use or near maintenance free operation, nothing out performs a quality windshirt (~35 CFM + 300 mm HH) for movement and a non-C6 DWR rain jacket for downpours, low-activity use, or static use (EVODry, or Outdry EX featherweight, or possibly DriDucks).

[Christoph Blank]

Richard Nisley,

Thank you very much – that’s how I understood it. I would use it for short, faster trips only.
In this case I usually check and prepare the jacket accordingly before.

For longer trips I wanted to replace my Rab Event Pull-On (3L) with a front-zipper jacket with pit zips – however, unfortunately, I did not see one yet.
I also had a look at the EvoDry jackets, but as you state I guess it’s rather for static use. I am mostly active/hiking therefore additional ventilation options would be convenient.

Thank you!
Christoph

[Woubeir (from Europe)]

Michael,

WINDSTOPPER is the same material as first generation Gore-Tex with the exception it is stretched more to create larger pores. When body oils and sweat comes into contact with the PTFE laminate, the PTFE becomes temporarily altered in such a way as to be rendered non-waterproof. I am not familiar with the associated chemistry other that the oil / sweat mixes with dirt and that combination has more surface energy than ePFTE.

Right.

The surface tension of water (surface tension because it is a liquid) is ± 70 mJ/m². The surface energy of PTFE (because it is a solid) is 20 mJ/m² and because it is much lower then the surface tension of water, it repels water and it prevents water of spreading out over its surface. However, PTFE can be contaminated because the surface energy/tension of that/those contaminant(s) is/are, while higher then that of PTFE, not that high that it/they can not stick to it. So the PTFE-surface gets coated with the contaminant(s) and while its/their surface energy is lower then the surface tension of water, it’s not that low that it can prevent water from spreading over its surface.

Now the pores: while to the naked eye they’re very tiny, under a microscope they’re huge. Because the surfaces of the pores are covered now with contaminants, water can run now through and your waterproof material starts to leak.

An oleophobic coating just has such a low surface tension/energy (maybe just 10 mJ/m²) that it can prevent an ordinary contaminant from sticking to it.

[Christoph Blank]

Does anyone already have actual experience with this gear?

[Christoph Blank]

Richard, one followup question regarding:

For longer trips use or near maintenance free operation, nothing out performs a quality windshirt (~35 CFM + 300 mm HH) for movement and a non-C6 DWR rain jacket for downpours, low-activity use, or static use (EVODry, or Outdry EX featherweight, or possibly DriDucks).

If you’re hiking in rain (not just drizzle), do you then take the Windshirt? Or what is your experience with the gap in between those two options?

Regarding the windshirt – I’ve got the Columbia Featherweight now and I always hesitate to take an extra windshirt (older Houdini), not sure if there exist better options meanwhile, for the specs you have mentioned.

I’m also tempted to give the MB Versalite (Windstopper) a try as a very lightweight combo for day/short hikes as a combined windshirt/rain shell. I like that they have pit zips, although requiring more care.

Thank you

[Philip Tschersich]

I have the previous version Tachyon anorak and recently got the new Tachyon parka. The new material is way better. The old Tachyon was like wearing a plastic bag. Sitting around camp it was fine, but under any exertion I had to take it off immediately because it simply didn’t breath well enough, and humidity and condensation built up within minutes. The new weave looks identical to the old stuff, but now I can huff up a mountain in it and barely have to unzip the front. Much (much!) improved. It’s astounding what a few cfm can do. It’s still light and blocks wind well, but isn’t like hiking in a sauna.

[Sean P]

The ‘new’ wind stopper by Gore is a significant improvement over the old, in my opinion, but I still wouldn’t use it for hiking.

The fabric has become very popular in the cycling world which has different demands to hiking and privileges low cfm over breathability.  I bought a cycling jersey of the material – rather stupidly, as I had sworn to myself that I would never buy wind stopper ever again.  Surprisingly, the jacket is very good for cycling and, even as a heavy sweat producer, perspiration is accommodated well by the fabric.

Doing the ‘breath-through’ test I can confirm that the fabric has a CFM whereas the old windstopper had no discernible CFM, at least not to the layperson.  In my opinion it is still not sufficient for backpacking, however the fabric in my jersey might be different to the montbell version.

 

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