Montane Minimus 777 Jacket Review

[Emylene VanderVelden]

Companion forum thread to: Montane Minimus 777 Jacket Review

This Montane Minimus 777 Jacket Review investigates the ultralight design, waterproofness, breathability, durability, and comfort of this sub-6-oz jacket in sustained rain.

[Colin Briggs]

All of the waterproof jackets on the market suffer from the same issues: The sleeves are too short, they need to be long enough cover your hands. This keeps the water off them and stops them from getting cold. The body of the jackets are too short. To be really useful they need to come down to at least mid thigh or you get a wet butt. They are all fashion statements!

We gave up on trying to buy a practical waterproof jacket and now make our own from Pertex Shield 2.5 layer. The style (or lack of a style) is a cross between a poncho and a jacket. The sleeves go to my finger tips. The body goes down to below my knees so we don’t need to use water proof pants. It weight – 230 grams.

Colin…

[Bruce Tolley]

Say what? So the author of the article had no personal experience with the gear being reviewed but saw someone else wear it??? and interviewed him? I would think this article should not be called a gear review. It is more akin to a “First Look” piece like when we used to get reports form the Outdoor Retailers event.

[HiLight]

All of the waterproof jackets on the market suffer from the same issues: The sleeves are too short, they need to be long enough cover your hands. This keeps the water off them and stops them from getting cold. The body of the jackets are too short. To be really useful they need to come down to at least mid thigh or you get a wet butt. They are all fashion statements!

Sounds like you found a MYOG option that works well for you, and I doubt it cost $300. For anyone looking for a long rain jacket, the Sierra Designs Elite Cagoule has long sleeves and a very long body. I’ll let the reader decide if it’s a fashion statement.

Here’s an overview. I’ll let people find their own links to buy one, if they’re interested.

[todd]

Agreed Bruce.  Weird.

Light jacket though.  I agree with the above comments on longer sleeves and tails.

[Colin Briggs]

Thanx HiLite for the heads up on the Cagoule. My relatives and friends are always harassing me to make them one. I just tried to buy 2 Cagoules from the Sierra Designs web site. Says they don’t ship to Australia :( Usually means they have a local agent who has a rip off price.

[HiLight]

Well, that escalated quickly.

Not wanting to pile on, but why didn’t the person that wore the garment write the review? Disconnecting the writer from the actual reviewer seems to be at odds with this from the Review Ratings page:

Bias and Conflicts of Interest

Backpacking Light makes no effort to remove “bias” in reviews. Indeed, we hope not only that the reviewer’s personality and experience come through as part of the review, but also that the reviewer communicates positive bias for products that offer unique capabilities, durability, quality manufacturing, and high performance – at a light weight, of course. Likewise, we expect products that do not meet acceptable standards in any one of these areas will be reviewed with some degree of negative bias.”

In this article, the writer doesn’t appear to have ever worn the garment, and we don’t know who the “tester” is, which casts the entire article in doubt, IMO. Is there some personality or bias in the article? If so, is the source the author or the tester?

I believe it would’ve been better to co-author the review with the tester, or allow them to author the review solo. BPL already has a mechanism in place for this, so why not use it?

[BlackHatGuy]

Hi Emylene,

Thanks for taking the time to write up your (I assume) friend’s thoughts and perspectives on this jacket, and I appreciate that he took the time to share his thoughts with you, and therefore us. I appreciate having information (regardless of what it’s called) from a variety of sources when thinking about buying gear, and especially from someone who has been backpacking for 18 years, often in wet environments.

While this was an interview instead of a personal review, it seems that you asked the right questions and got the right info. I would only suggest that, for future interviews, it would be helpful to know a bit more about the actual reviewer – does the person usually sweat a lot or not so much, how tall they are, how long their arms are, etc. But those, to me, are minor quibbles.

Again, thanks for taking the time to share the reviewer’s thoughts.

[jscott]

Geeze give Emylene a break. Or do your own damned review. This jacket wasn’t on my radar but now it is. Like any such item, I’ll look at it in person rather than trusting any reviewer. But that’s true of all reviews for me.

I like rain jackets and yes I’ve heard every riposte there is. this one weighs five ounces and is three ply. It seems right in the bpl wheelhouse. so the review is informative and appropriate.

There’s some grouchy couch potato attacks here (‘I have no idea where you acquired your vocabulary” etc.) that are just plain gratuitis and mean. “

[Bruce Tolley]

My issue is with the title which I think is a misrepresentation and the email that was sent out advertising that there was a product review article to read.

It is not a product review, Mr Ryan sent an email to me specifically inviting me to read a review.

Is there more information about the tradeoffs Montane made to get to 5 oz  since there is a reference to get the OR Helium 2 if you want more length.  The Helium stopped at my waist when I tried in on in a store. How short is the Montane?  As noted above, many of us like rain gear that provides a bit more coverage and skip the rain pants for chaps or a kilt/skirt.

 

[Ken Thompson]

A number of long time members chiming in with their opinions and criticism without giving an example of their expectations or example of the type of review they were expecting. May I offer the following as an example. Dave is still here and would probably be willing to offer some advice/perspective.

https://backpackinglight.com/rab-vrlite-alpine-review-chenault/

I fully accept and respect the decision to delete comments in this thread that violate the following forum guidelines found here

http://support.backpackinglight.com/article/48-are-forums-moderated-what-are-your-guidelines

I have no wish or intention of being banned again. I only supplied the link to Dave’s excellent review as an example of expectation. Have mercy on Em.

[HiLight]

Sounds about right. No need to get personal about it.

Anyone wishing to compare past Performance Reviews to more contemporary offerings can take a look and decide for themselves where things stand.

https://backpackinglight.com/category/gear-reviews-main/gear-reviews/

 

[Brad Branan]

Her approach to a product review is unusual, but I would not discredit it out of hand. An able journalist and writer can interview an informed subject and accurately distill his or her thoughts, which the subject might not have been able to communicate as well.

Honestly, it looks like a great coat. It mirrors the RAB Flashpoint I own – close to same weight, same material. And it has performed superbly – not made for the PNW, but something that provides amazing protection for how light it is.

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

The Minimus 777 is made using the Pertex Shield+ membrane, which I think deserves a warning here.

Pertex Shield+ is extremely thin polyurethane – Montane boasts about how it’s only 7 microns thick. This thin-ness means the breathability is good and that it is light, but the problem is that it doesn’t last (based on my experience several other Pertex Shield+ Minimus products from Montane but not specifically the 777). The membrane is so thin that it quickly develops micro cracks. Mine leak pretty badly after 15+ days of prolonged use – most likely you’ll notice this first under the pack straps.

It’s possible that the 7D inner backing helps this a bit, but normally membranes start degrading and cracking because of stretching/torque/strain, not actual abrasion. That’s why membranes commonly leak under shoulder straps even while the outer fabric layers look good. My Montane Minimus pants didn’t have more than 10 good rainy days on them before they starting leaking substantially. My 20 days they were a joke and I starting using them as wind pants. I’m not talking about the DWR wetting out, but rather lots of water coming right through from a broken down membrane.

So my guess is that the 777 is only a good choice if you’re willing to spend a lot of money for a rain jacket that you don’t plan on actually using that much. If you hike in areas where it rains for an hour every few days then it could be good. It’s light and will work great in the first few storms, as we see in this article. However hike with it on all day for 10+ days and you’ll probably find you no longer have a waterproof jacket anymore.

A better option in my opinion is to grab a Gore-Tex jacket that you can warranty when it inevitably leaks some day. I think breathability in rain jackets is overrated. I just want a coat that’ll keep the rain out and I’ll deal with the humidity inside. With Pertex Shield+, breathability has been so focused on that they’ve lost sight of keeping the coat actually waterproof. Yeah I’m little jaded after buying a few Montane Minimus items a couple years ago.

A fantastic deal right now is Black Diamonds Mono Point jacket. It’s 2.5 layer Gore-Tex PacLite. In size medium mine weighs 8.5oz. The sleeves and torso and nice and long. You don’t need to size up. I’m 5’11, 170 and the medium is generous like a proper alpine shell. And it’s on sale for just $96 (vs $299 retail). Use the code EXTRA20 at the link below (no affiliation):

http://blackdiamondequipment.com/en_CA/mens-jackets-shells/m%27s-mono-point-shell-APKP12650MED1.html

[Ryan Jordan]

I was Emylene’s primary editor on this review. In addition, I’ve worn the 777 series jackets for the past two backpacking seasons. If there was anything in the review that was inaccurate or otherwise inconsistent with my experiences, the review was altered to bring those in line during the draft revision process.

We assigned this review to Emylene because she had access to sustained cold and wet conditions in her locale, had the bandwidth to manage a product tester, had the ability to discuss jacket performance, and observe jacket performance, directly. With this arrangement in place, and me being assigned as the review editor, I have total confidence in Emylene’s ability to synthesize the experiences of her tester into an accurate and valuable review.

I’d like to use this arrangement in the future, simply because we have access to some very experienced testers, and (ahem) not all of them are very experienced (or willing) writers. This is not the first time we’ve used an arrangement like this, and (I hope) it won’t be the last, because I don’t want to rely solely on our own perspectives. Having the perspectives of other (non-writers at BPL) is valuable as well, no?

Is the review information accurate?

Is the review information valuable?

I hope these two questions provide the basis for the quality of our reviews. They are the same two questions we’ve been asking since Day 1 here.

If there are inaccuracies in the review, I’m all ears. If the review makes invaluable claims, same deal. But for goodness sakes, please communicate with some sensitivity and focus on the “issues”, keep your mind open enough to allow for some other perspectives, and don’t levy a personal attack on the writers here who are actually in the trenches and writing for BPL.

I do think the discussion about sleeve length and hem length is particularly useful in this context. For me, I’m a rain pant guy, so I’m not looking for a cagoule. In addition, using trekking poles or an ice axe, I’m not a huge fan of long sleeves. In addition, I’m often wearing rain mitts in these situations anyways. YMMV. I acknowledge the long sleeved cagoule design and its value in some situations. But for my own style of mountain hiking, mountaineering, and bushwhacking, I’m not a fan.

[Ken Thompson]

In future clothing reviews could we get some info on the tester’s size, build? Like long torso, built like a penguin, etc.. And some insight on the garments fit, trim, athletic, runs true to size included in the review would be appreciated by me at least. Thank you.

[David P]

I’m still very happy with my $100 (at sale of course) OR Helium II jacket. Weights 1.5oz more but it’s half the price. It’s been plenty breathable for me summitting 14ers here in CA.

[Bruce Tolley]

Ryan

I myself got more than a little confused by the use of the word “review” in the title.  When I got to the photo, I realized that it was not a photo of the author (Emylene) with the jacket on. So I went back and read the title and the first couple of lines over again. The use of the royal “we” gave no hint that the author was writing the “review” and someone else was using the product.  Then I read in the lines after the photo that there was a product tester involved that the author interviewed.

In the spirit of continuous process improvement, I would recommend 1) that you include in the subtitle or the introduction some synopsis of the methodology, namely that the author is summarizing someone else’s experience (the product tester’s) and 2) that you change the name of this category of articles to something like “Test Report” or “Product Evaluation.”

Cheers/Bruce

[Gabe P]

I think for me what felt off about the review, and I want to be clear that I’m glad to see BPL doing more gear reviews, is the fact that links to retailers offering the jacket were listed near the end of the article. Does BPL make money off of this? It’s not that this would necessarily make me question whether BPL really endorses the product, but it’d be nice to have that degree of transparency. This morning on Facebook BPL posted about Campsaver having this jacket on sale and so this added to my concern. Does anyone know wether BPL profits when someone uses the links to retailers listed in their articles?

[William Chilton]

Gabe, I guess you missed this, “Disclosure: some of the links above may be affiliate links, which means if you place an order at one of these retailers, we receive a small commission on this sale. This helps support Backpacking Light, thank you!”

[Ethan A.]

Emylene, I appreciate the information and the time and effort you invested to share it. I’m especially interested in your and your local friend’s perspective here and in other reviews as people who regularly backpack in sustained wet Northwest conditions.

Like Doug I’d appreciate knowing more about the reviewer/wearer – do they tend to sweat a lot, their size and measurements, etc. For example, when pushing hard I sweat much more than my wife, and as a result she can typically wear less breathable jackets.

@Dan thanks for passing along that Black Diamond piece, looks very nice for the weight. Years ago I had read a few very negative comments on Gore-Tex Paclite – do you know folks that have good long term experience with Paclite?

[Mordecai _]

Ryan,

Please speak to Dan’s point about the eventual failure of the waterproof membrane, assuming you or the tester have 10+ full days of hiking with it in the rain, or comparable sum of partial days.

If that assumption is false, would the recommended rating hold if you later verify his experience?

 

[Bruce Tolley]

RE: the question about Goretex Paclite

Dave Chenault recommended a Goretex Paclite garment based on personal experience in his State of the Market Review: https://backpackinglight.com/ul_wpb_jackets_sotmr_part1/

I have been quite happy with an Arcteryx Goretex Paclite jacket that I bought in 2006.  I do refresh the DWR at the beginning of every season.

[Jean Swann]

I am a fan of a waterproof, non-breathable poncho. I spent a bundle on a “waterproof, breathable” rain jacket that was neither. I also appreciate the fact that my tiny, ultralight pack fits handily underneath my 5.5 oz. $5.00 Wal-Mart poncho, so it stays completely dry, straps and all, with no “pack cover” weight penalty. Just my opinion.

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

Years ago I had read a few very negative comments on Gore-Tex Paclite – do you know folks that have good long term experience with Paclite?

For almost every membrane you can find good and bad stories for both it’s waterproofness and breathability. If you boil it all down to the basics, almost every WP/B membrane is just polyurethane (PU) where both breathability and durability are correlated with it’s thickness.

Really cheap membranes are crudely applied (e.g painted on) so the thickness varies and thus it can leak in places while being thick in others. However, the vast majority of decent jackets use PU applied as a film, which has a consistent thickness. So simplistically, we can say thin PU membranes breathe well but have a shorter life.

Both PacLite and Pertex Shield+ are just PU, with PacLite being substantially thicker. So based on first principles, Pertex Shield+ will breath better but not last as long. As soon as the PS+ starts failing, then you’ll be getting a lot wetter than with PacLite so the breathability advantage is short lived.

There are other factors to durability as well, but strain/stress/twisting is probably the #1 factor. Put a membrane under a heavy shoulder strap where it’s under a lot of strain and it’ll degrade much quicker even if the outer fabrics look good.

Original Gore-Tex was PTFE which breathes better but is degraded by body oils, so for the last few decades high end Gore-Tex has been a PU/PTFE/PU sandwich which breathes only marginally better than the same thickness of just PU. The rest of GT’s products are just PU. Whenever Gore-Tex claims a breakthrough, they’ve usually either modifying the thickness of the PU or they’re using a new adhesive to glue the layers together – which has saved a little weight but otherwise is pretty trivial. Not much has really changed. eVent did solve the oil degradation issue with PTFE so their membranes are moderately more breathable but the same thickness/durability/breathability correlations exist. There are a few other options too (e.g. NeoShell) that I’m not as familiar with.

Getting back on topic, even the most breathable shell is going to get stuffy if you’re working hard. The unavoidable reality is that even if the jacket was infinitely breathable, the outside air is still saturated from environmental humidity so it can’t accept much sweat from your body and thus it won’t evaporate as fast as you make it. Body heat helps a bit, but any rain jacket is still going to get stuff eventually if you’re working hard. I don’t think this a problem that is really solvable, even by spending a lot of money. Either hike on and get a bit sweaty or relax and wait out the rain. Having a more breathable jacket doesn’t change this paradigm much.

So I’m not an expert on PacLite, but it should easily outlast PS+, and even it if doesn’t it’s much easier to warranty and you can use the credit towards a different GT jacket.

[Author]

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