Layering Advice (Cue Windshirt Discussion)

Disclaimer – I’ve not hiked the entire PCT but sections in the Sierras and lots in WA. A lot depends on how warm you run and where/when you’ll be hiking. Option 1 sounds fine for mid-summer in Norcal and Oregon. For WA in later August into September I’d want that mid-layer thermal, plus a little warmer sleep system too. As for the wind shell, while it’s somewhat redundant with a rain jacket, I’d always carry it because it’s so versatile and light.

When I do winter section hikes on the AT I usually do something like your Option 2, except when it’s REALLY cold, then I do what you were doing originally.

Seems like you have a good system already, If you want to save weight why not just drop the sleep shirt.  That will save about the same amount of weight and leave you with a great systems and it costs nothing.

When active and temp is say <50F I can comfortably use the Tachyon, but not so much the Ex Light.  There is a real difference.  I think the Tachyon is maybe the best 1.7oz I carry, especially when combined with the Thermal Weight Hoody.

I haven’t used the the Capilene Air. If it’s warmer I won’t want it,  I find the Thermal Weight Hoody perfect balance if insulation and air permiability, and it’s my favorite base layer when it’s cooler. By the time it’s too cold for me to use a featherweight shirt when active I switch  to Thermal Weight. I typically don’t layer them unless it’s really code. By the time I have switched to the Thermal Weight,  it’s cool enough that I don’t sweat too much so it works well as both my active and sleep shirt.  When I am getting cold I add a windshirt, when getting warm I push up sleeves, etc.  When it’s warmer and my activity shirt needs to be rinsed of, the thermal weight (plus maybe windshirt) becomes my evening wear / sleep shirt.

–Mark

Mark, can you speak to the difference between the Ex Light and the Tachyon? The Tachyon is listed as 2.5 oz, by the way, and the Ex Light at 1.7 oz. Since I’ll also be carrying a dedicated rain shell, I prefer the option that is more breathable / higher CFM. Can you describe more the “real difference” you mention?

Is there an up-to-date table somewhere with CFM values? I’ve seen one in the past, but I know the fabrics tend to change every year (today’s Houdini is not yesterday’s).

On the redundancy of the wind shirt / rain shell, has anybody used these together over a baselayer? Does using them together add much warmth, or not really?

In my opinion, only three layers are needed.

To me, the purpose of the base layer is to absorb body oils so they don’t contaminate outer layers.  It also serves the function of sun and bug protection in warm weather if that’s all I need for warmth.  It doesn’t much matter whether it’s nylon, polyester, wool, or whatever, as long as it provides sun/bug protection and is light weight.

The outer layer provides wind and rain protection.  I like a WPB like Gore-Tex.

If I need more warmth a mid layer of down or synthetic like Apex.  Down is lightest but if it gets wet it loses it’s warmth.  Synthetic weighs twice as much for the same warmth. If it’s colder, then I just use a thicker mid layer.

No reason to have a thicker base layer if it’s cold.  No reason to have an extra layer of fleece or fabric like a wind shirt.  It weighs less for a given warmth to just have a slightly thicker mid layer.  Down or synthetic have much better warmth per weight than fleece or any fabric.

If you wanted to use a windshirt as an outer layer, because it’s not going to rain, then that would make sense, lighter than WPB.  As long as you don’t also carry a WPB.

I just wear my hiking base layer to bed, but I could see having a separate sleeping shirt.

I never do more than a week at a time, maybe thru hiking would be different.  I could see having a second copy of the base layer so you could wash it.  Also, you could then use it as a separate sleeping shirt.

Lately, I’ve been wearing two mid layers if it’s below freezing – one down, and one Apex.  Each is a vest that weighs 4.5 ounces.  If I was in a survival situation and the down got wet, maybe the Apex would be enough to survive.  The Apex is light enough I occasionally wear it while hiking and it’s light enough (2.5 oz/yd2) that I won’t sweat, and if I do sweat it retains it’s warmth.

If you’ve already hiked the PCT, you’re the only expert on what sort of gear you will be comfortable with and whether or not 5 oz (or 1 oz?) matters.

I hiked the PCT (15 years ago) using a 200 weight fleece jacket (built with amazing head pillow transformation technology) and Frogg Toggs (might have been some “off brand” version, can’t remember what they were called – they were very blue, and very light).  One t-shirt, one lightweight long sleeve, and lightweight long underwear.  The long sleeve was white and airy, originally intended for desert hiking, but I gave up on that in favor of a sleeveless shirt for maximum ventilation.  It served as a better sleep shirt, along with the long underwear which I rarely wore except for sleeping.  I also had a large silnylon poncho for a ground sheet.  I sometimes used this at rest stops in the rain and sometimes as a lean-to when I didn’t want to setup my main sil shelter.  The Frogg Togg pants were mostly laundry pants and occasionally wind paints.

The Frogg Togg jacket was a very good wind shell. As a rain jacket, I went through daily severe thunderstorms in the Sierra and days of continual rain in Oregon/Washington.  I used basically the same minimal setup hiking the Colorado trail (late summer into fall), Wonderland trail (October), yo-yoing the JMT, and various other long Sierra jaunts.  With continuous severe rain, I’m of the opinion there is no staying completely dry while hiking.  Eventually you’ll be soaked through by rain or sweat.  But I do favor sleeping clothes, both for extra warmth and keeping the funk off your sleeping bag.  It’s nice to put on something that isn’t caked in sweat and filth at the end of the day.

I’ve used various fancier layering systems in the years since my first PCT outing (eVent, Pertex, etc, etc) and I do like purpose built wind shells, but it’s hard to say I’ve found one that functions better than that old paper thing. You don’t win style points with a sub $20 jacket that looks like paper scrubs, but functionally, sometimes less can be more.

sorry… misparsed.  I read Ex Light both thought Columbua Featherlite (one of the rainshells you are considering).  I believe exactly same material between ex light and tachyon… the difference is a hood.  I think hoods are good.  My tachyon is a few years ago.  size M is 1.7oz with partial zip.

I don’t expect significant warm advantage of windshirt + rainshell vs just rainshell.  I have often had them layered, but that was because I was wearing the windshirt and then ran into conditions which required more and had no reason to remove the windshirt.

–mark

@Mark, thanks again. I think that’s definitely one of the questions I’m asking, namely, whether there is any additional warmth of windshirt + rainshell vs. just rainshell. Sounds like your experience is “no”.

I think you’re right that the difference is a hood — the current Tachyon has a hood and weighs 2.5 oz while the Ex Light has no hood and weighs 1.7 oz. I assume this light means it’s pretty breathable.

@Aaron, yes, I am an expert on one set up that worked for me, but would like to improve it the second time around, if possible. I appreciate y’all sharing what works for you.

I understand.  I think my current philosophy is probably counter to the enthusiasm for maximum optimization many people around these parts enjoy.  “If it aint broke don’t fix it”  or “Minimalism is also a state of mind”… something like that?  I like tinkering and DIYing, but beyond that I find myself increasingly allergic to the never ending cycle of marketing hype and upgrade pressure we’re bombarded with from all corners.  But I’m someone that doesn’t even know what my PCT base weight was, and was never really “ultralight” even by old standards, so my advice to those looking for the lowest possible pack weight would probably be bad.  I would only say for random people stumbling across this thread planning long hikes: there’s more than one way to approach gear selection.  I think most gear choices are ultimately personal and subjective and it’s impossible to create a spreadsheet or mathematical formula that figures out one’s personal comfort level.  Even if there was, I would throw it out.  You’ve just got to learn by doing, and most likely you’ll never feel you’ve reached perfection.