Kovea Spider failed in cold weather…now what?

[Anonymous]

Any way to reinforce this area so that something like this is less likely to happen?

[Stephen M]

How about some heat restiant tape?

[Roger Caffin]

Any way to reinforce this area so that something like this is less likely to happen?

The problem is, any tape that you use is likely to be even more sensitive to the cold.

Cheers

[James Marco]

Well, you could use the old muffler tape. An additional covering of heat resistant tape over that end might help…at least in avoiding the extreme bending that causes the actual failure.

The problem, as I see it, is that many materials used in hoses is not heat resistant enough. If the hose is ever overheated, the material can loose flexibility, at least on the outside layers. When bent, the outside will not stretch and the inner part of the bend will not compress…similar to bending a brass tube repeatedly. Something has to give. You get kinking and failure when this has happened to the tube, from the heat.

So a simple two or three wraps of muffler tape should stiffen the area preventing this from bending at the join between the compression and the tubing. And, it will provide some insulation against heat. Likely some super glue over the broken joint can accomplish the same thing, but it really should be replaced. A few drops of superglue over a new hose joint will also cause it to stiffen and accomplish the same thing, but the root cause was an overheat.

Anyway, I suspect a tight windscreen or over priming actually caused the overheat, initially. This may have happened long before it actually failed and/or may be cumulative over several uses. Replacing the hose is obvious. But an examination of your technique might reveal something you are doing to cause the the whole stove to get hot…including the hose end. It could also be simple age or some contamination caused by oil if it is a rubber compound. (“Rubber” is a natural product or one based on a natural product. Oils in general will attack these compounds, generally speaking. The typical rubber and DEET mix for instance causes many problems, sometimes fairly long term and unnoticed at the time.)

 

[Ian]

Well n = 1 and all that but if I had a winter stove that required muffler tape for me to feel safe using it, I wouldn’t see a second one in my shopping cart after the first flamethrower incident.

I was pretty close to buying one but I think I’ll just stick with my MSR and see if this happens again with someone else.

[James Marco]

I agree, Ian.  But, again, it may rest with technique and materials.  I often use a tight wind screen so the stove does get hot. Yes, I understand the problem and was concerned. Muffler tape is just a band-aid for those that already have the stove.

[Ian]

I wasn’t attacking your suggestion and that’s likely as good of an idea as any.  My largest concern here is that the stove even requires that level of care.  I get and appreciate that UL gear needs extra care, but these stoves are new and the fact that we’re already having this discussion is concerning.

Again, this is just one incident so I’m withholding judgment on this stove until I see more end user reports from people who are using this in the winter.

I’ve had some emotionally significant experiences with white gas too so there’s that.

[Jerry Adams]

“I’ve had some emotionally significant experiences with white gas too so there’s that.”

You mean the time the fireball singed your eyebrows? :)

[Jon Fong / Flat Cat Gear]

To give everyone an update, I have been in contact with the Kovea US representative and included a link to this thread.  He informed me that he has made this a high priority for their engineering group.  In reality, not much can be determined until someone perform non-destructive/ destructive testing on the part that failed.  Best regards.

[Ian]

“You mean the time the fireball singed your eyebrows? :)”

I have two responses, I can’t choose which one I like more, so I’ll present both for your reading enjoyment.

1. Which time?
2. Apparently using a Coleman Peak One stove that’s been rotting away in a gear closet for nearly twenty years, all while neglecting to service it at all and using Coleman fuel that’s about as old is technically considered to be “a bad idea.”  Weird.

[Roger Caffin]

Thanks for the update Jon.

Perhaps an offer by Kovea to swap a new stove for the old one would be well received, and would get them the damaged one for forensics?

Cheers

 

[Overshot]

Chris,

Any updates on the stove? Has Kovea provided any explanation or resolution for this yet? Keep us posted. Thanks!

[Jon Fong / Flat Cat Gear]

Unfortunately, there has been zero feedback from Kovea.  Needless to say, I find this disappointing as they were given a forum to make a fair and timely response.  I suspect that this may be a one off failure as there are a lot of these stoves out there and I do not think that the hose assemblies are significantly different than there other remote stoves.  Since these remote stove are targeted for cold weather conditions, we’ll have to see what the long term reliability will be.

[chris smead]

Hey all,

No word from Kovea.  To be fair…I never tried to contact them.  I’m sure it’s a great stove under normal circumstance.   Perhaps I just pushed it too much with temps that low.

Several things failed on me that are normally fine….so I don’t really hold it against them.

[NoCO-Jim]

FWIW, Coleman added black reinforcement on later versions.  My original 1997 Xtreme did not have the black reinforcement on the SS braid.  My original cooker failed (forgot why) and bought the 2007 unit pictured below.  Maybe the black reinforcement is for window dressing?  Don’t know.  But Coleman thought it was worth the expense.

 

[Jon Fong / Flat Cat Gear]

I just heard back from the Kovea representative, he apologized for not responding as he has been travelling.  Send your stove to me and I will send you a replacement.  I expect that Kovea will want to do a full autopsy on the failure.  Along with your stove, please send as much detail as possible as to the condition and events that lead to the failure.  This will help them to determine the possible failure modes.  Best regards – Jon

 

FLAT CAT GEAR

23691 Summit Drive

Calabasas, CA 91302

[chris smead]

Wow thanks Jon!  Very nice of you to help.  The fact that you’re willing to handle this return despite the fact that I bought it from another company on eBay shows amazing customer service.  For sure I’ll be buying my next stove from you.

Will send it out this week.

-Chris

[Roger Caffin]

OK, definite brownie point for Jon Fong.

Cheers

[Overshot]

I closely inspected and leak tested my stove given this info.  I a bubble solution and put it on all the fittings, and the entire braided hose when the stove was flowing with full fuel.  The stove was not lit, but only flowing full fuel.  It was tight and leak free.  I then removed the fuel hose at the flare fitting at the stove and added adhesive lined heat shrink tubing to stiffen up the crimp on the SS braided hose. If is definitely more solid.

[chris smead]

Kudos to Jon at Flat Cat gear.   Got my replacement stove the other day.  Thanks again!

And to anyone who hasn’t checked out flat cat gear, you should.  They have some cool UL stuff on their site.

[David Sugeno]

I purchased my Kovea Spider through Flat Cat, and now I’m even more glad that I did.  Kudos to Jon.

[Jon Fong / Flat Cat Gear]

After several months, I do have a response from Kovea regarding the fuel line failure.

The fuel line breakage was a combination of very cold weather and the hose line becoming hard and breaking when bending as he did wrap it around and place it in his bin over night, had it thawed properly or not been in such extreme weather this issue would not have happened. Again, I want to send him another Spider to show that is was just a bad case of what went wrong and that it does not happen again.

I have already replaced this stove.  Lesson learned: if your fuel line is stiff don’t force it, let it thaw a bit.  It might be best to store your stove (not attached to the canister) inside your tent on a cold night.

Jon

[chris smead]

Thanks Jon.  Yes the above makes sense.  It might be a good lesson to learn for other stoves as well.  Looking at my MSR windpro, it seems the same failure could be possible.   I’ll be sleeping with my winter stoves from now on.

[Mario Caceres]

I recently backpacked in Peruvian Andes, Ausangate area near Cuzco to be specific.  I used the Kovea Spider for the first time on the field.  Although I did not have any problems as reported on this thread, I did notice that the stove would make some mini-explosions rather than a steady heeze while in use.  This trek is between 15k-17k elevation.  I noticed this issue would be less noticeable when using a very low setting (i.e simmering).  I had not experienced this issue at sea level when i tested the stove back at home in San Francisco, Califonia.  Anybody has had similar issues at altitude?

[Roger Caffin]

Ceratinly looked to me as though the problem could have been either a failed crimp or a fractured hose – or a bit of both. Putting a severe bend on the hose at the exit from the crimp when the hose is very cold could have assisted the crimp in failing. Do not bend the hose too much!

Mind you, that suggests that whatever the hose was made of might not be the best material to use. Yes, it is necessary to use a plastic (or rubber) which can handle the possibly high temperatures involved, but it must also handle severe cold. The latter often is forgotten. Possibly poor form on Kovea’s part there – maybe.

Me, I use PFA for the hose. Maximum working temperature is 260 C (500 F), and minimum working temp is -200 C (-400 F). Burst pressure is the highest out of PTFE, FEP and PFA. But it is more expensive than most other plastics or rubbers.

Cheers

 

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