Is Enlightened Equipment temperature rating accurate?

Tim

Do a search for the more popular WM bags on euro retail sites …. They give the en-ratings

The caveat is that they may not be updated to the newer 2012 or 2016 tests

As to labs theres should be several that tests to the same standars … In fact the updates in 2012 were meant to reduce the variance between the labs

Whether they all test quilts … That i dont know

;)

EN-test labs: e.g. Thelma Test Center (Norway), Aitex (Spain), EMPA ? (Switzerland), …

Hi Tim

Contact the European Outdoor Group: sort of an umbrella organisation over there. They should be able to give you a list of current test labs. The web site http://www.europeanoutdoorgroup.com will get them. They have a number of useful PDFs on this. There is also good Mammut PDF.

A search on “en 13537 test europe” will give you lots of info as well.

Now, a word of caution here. IDFL and the Europeans do not see eye to eye about testing down. IDFL has a down preparation method which boosts 800 fill down to nearly a 900 rating, but the test conditions are utterly unrealistic – somewhere around 0% RH. Try to get that in the field!

The Europeans are very scathing about IDFL, and claim that the IDFL approach is for purely commercial benefit to IDFL. I have seen European mfr specs for down gear which actually quote two values: European testing and IDFL testing, the latter always being higher. So it is unlikely that IDFL will give you any help in contacting the Europeans.

Email me direct if you need any further help or discussion.

Cheers

I guess my take on this is that it is cleary VERY person dependent. For every anecdote about being warm to 10ºF in a 20ºF bag you will find one that said they were cold at 30ºF in the same bag.

I agree that standardization would be great, but clearly thats not really where the industry is right now.
I would tell anyone buying any quilt or bag that you’ve got to know your sleeping habits/tendencies when interpreting the ratings.

I just purchased 2 bags from Tim that are top notch in build quality. I can’t speak to their temperature ratings yet, but I would reiterate EE’s return/exchange policy. Seems to me that you can’t lose with that policy as a fall back. If the 20ºF is too cold, exchange for a 10ºF.

For every anecdote about being warm to 10ºF in a 20ºF bag you will find one that said they were cold at 30ºF in the same bag.
Not in dispute about this, but our experience here at BPL is that the difference is often to be found in the quality of the mat under the sleeper. A thin mat with a low R-value is always a problem.

standardization would be great, but clearly thats not really where the industry is right now.
Sadly, not in America, but in Europe they do go for standardisation. The consumer benefits.

Cheers

Looks like my team didn’t look hard enough. Glad to have some other labs to contact.

I love the idea of standardization.  I’d love to have all my quilts rated eventually, but at least some of the most popular options in the next 6 months. I just need to know there is consistency and repeatability in the testing.

-Tim

Not in dispute about this, but our experience here at BPL is that the difference is often to be found in the quality of the mat under the sleeper. A thin mat with a low R-value is always a problem.

Certainly agree with that Roger!

No doubt that insufficient R-value of your pad can wreak havoc. I use either an Exed DownMat 9 or SynMat 9. Both are coupled with a Thermarest Ridge Rest. The combined R-value is 10.8 or 8.8, so I think I’ve got myself covered below.

Last winter I was homeless (by choice) for about four months in Georgia. Not the coldest place on earth, but in January and February it does drop into the single digits some nights. I was stealth camping on this commercial plot of land next to my gym. Several nights I spent in my hammock with EE 30 degree (or 25 or whatever it is) synthetic TQ and my old 0 degree 3/4 length Yeti UQ.

Over a dozen nights my thermometer was down below 20. Three nights it was under ten. Lowest was four. I think it speaks to the quality of both quilt manufacturers that I kept myself alive those nights with a TQ that shouldn’t have been warm enough, and an UQ that only went from my shoulders to my knees.

Most nights I wore wool leggings and a LS shirt. Those nights under ten I wore everything I had. So you can take that into account. But honestly wearing all your clothes to bed is part of the UL philosophy anyway so I don’t think that takes away from my point.

I’d also like to say I personally believe bottom insulation to be of greater importance than top insulation on cold nights. I’ve taken a 30 degree UQ and a 50 degree opened mummy bag to 30 degrees comfortably.

I looked at a couple of synthetic bags recently that were EN tested at 22°F and I was impressed by their lack of bulk. But the bottom layer of each bag felt thinner than the top. As a slide sleeper, I would need to rotate the bag in order to take full advantage of the hood and contoured footbox.

If the EN testing is done with the bag not rotated in its side 90 degrees and if the bottom layer of these bags really is thinner than the top and not just something I imagined, then it seems like the EN testing is most applicable to back sleepers.

Quilts (with separate hood) might be at a disadvantage in terms of EN testing unless a side-sleeper test is also done.

P.S. If I’m wrong about the top and bottom of mummy bags commonly having different insulation thickness, then please disregard everything I just wrote! :)

wearing all your clothes to bed is part of the UL philosophy
Unless they are all wet. You need to be able to handle that situation as well.
Cheers

If the EN testing is done with the bag not rotated in its side 90 degrees and if the bottom layer of these bags really is thinner than the top and not just something I imagined, then it seems like the EN testing is most applicable to back sleepers.

True

If I’m wrong about the top and bottom of mummy bags commonly having different insulation thickness, then please disregard everything I just wrote! :)

Well, it’s more common than you think. In down bags, they use the term differntial fill to describe that. In synth bags, it’s usually about the number of layers used on the underside compared to the upperside.

EDIT: there were 6 labs involved in the comparison test

I have a 30 deg Rev which I feel very comfortable down to about 38-40 F without wind under a mid. My 10 deg Enigma is comfortable to about 28-30 F. This is wearing mid weight base layers, beanie and Montbell Ex Light Anorak for both quilts. I attribute my 10 deg Enigma being less effective for me because I’m going just beyond the capabilities of my pad (Neoair xlite).

This is pretty consistent bags I’ve used from Marmot. I’ve never been comfortable at the temp of the rating the bag or quilt.

don ..

you need a proper insulated hood … at those temps your likely loosing heat from yr head which is affecting the perceived temp rating of your quilts …

heres what the US Army says about heat loss from the head when the rest of the body is  insulated

;)

I just did my own testing. Was out the other night in my new 20* enigma & 20* revolt. It was 18*F overnight, with 30mph winds. I was in my hammock, wearing only my thermal bottoms, a tshirt with a hooded thermal top and light fleece. Only used the hoods from the base layer and fleece on my head. I was plenty warm. Able to sleep nicely. I didn’t supplement the quilts at all, ie. uqp, wrapping down jacket around feet, layering up, etc. because I wanted to see what just the quilts did.

Eric,

on the last winter trip I took, I wore a balaclava. On 3 season trips I always wear a fleece beanie and my Montbell Ex light anorak with the hood so I’m not sure if a dedicated hood would change how cold I get. Hmmm… I’m up for trying anything though since I’m a cold sleeper. My heart rate is naturally low. About 40-45 bpm at rest. ?

I sleep cold and figure an extra -10 for me. I also always wear a hooded puffy to sleep. I’ve been in my 20 degree revelation down to freezing and was fine.

We also have a 30 Rev Jr. for my son and a 30 Apex small for my daughter. At EE’s 30 I like apex better for the more even distribution of insulation. The 30 down doesn’t have the wonderful puffiness of the 20. (And there’s probably a similar tipping point with any other quilt brands)

don

down/synth baclavas weight so little its worth a shot …. also a cheap foam pad under yr xlite should work wonders at lower temps

kath

30-40F is where synth tends to be worth it … also remember that if ones down gets damp, a 30F down bag will collapse faster than say a 10 or 20F one …

while a synth will still work

from our fearless leader …

Just for kicks, we weighed our bags and measured their loft when we got back into town tonight.

Carol was using a Valandre Shocking Blue, which lost almost 20% of its loft for a weight gain of water of around 10%. I was using an Arc X, which only weighs a pound dry, gained 25% of its weight in water (interestingly, about the same weight gain as the Shocking Blue – 4 oz or so), but with far less down to buffer the effect, lost an amazing 80% of its loft.

Neither bag was particularly “flat” this morning – we speculate that the primary mechanism by which so much loft is lost is during packing – stuffing a bag with moisture on its shell into a stuff sack, causing that moisture to migrate into the insulation.

http://ryanjordan.com/blog/2006/02/down_gear_in_sc/

;)

Eric,

yes, true. I might try to nab a down hood on gear swap.

I won’t bring a supplemental foam pad for summer trips but I used a 3/4 length zlite knock off with my neoair xlite for a winter trip last weekend. It got down to 18 deg. I was fine but my back (on the pads) was cool. Combined spec R value should be 5.4. I’m considering getting a Klymit insulated pad (R4.4) off of Massdrop to use with the foam pad in winter instead of the xlite.

I used a 10deg Enigma and a myog 3.6 apex overquilt. It worked well with thermal weight base layers and balaclava. Interesting quote about weighing the quilts post trip. I’ll do that next time.

Do temp ratings assume an enclosed shelter?

I’ve had my EE Revelation 40 down to 34*F in a tent on a windy spring night on Mt. Mitchell and was perfectly comfortable.  I was using a Prolite pad and wearing running socks, running pants, a short sleeve syn. t-shirt and a 100wt fleece.  (I may have put a buff on my head, I can’t remember.)

I have a 30 degree EE Revelation and a Katabatic Flex 30. With socks, silk long johns, long sleeve shirt and hooded puffy all on the same pad, I’m good to about 33-35 in the EE, 25-27 in the Katabatic. This makes sense if you put them side by side as the EE doesn’t have as much loft and the foot doesn’t seal as well and it doesn’t seal as well at the top. Not sure when comparing the 20 degree version if it adds more features?
If all holds, then with a warm puffy and warmer long johns than I wear I think you’d be pushing it at 20 but would survive in a 20 degree Revelation. If you regularly sleep in 20 degree weather I’d recommend a Katabatic for the extra features that really do help. If you mostly sleep in 30+ and only occasionally down to 20, then save money and weight with an EE; quality is excellent, price is great and their weights are fantastic.
For reference, I sleep a bit warmer than many do.

Roger and M Compton are correct:  the pad is almost always the problem if you are sleeping well outside the temp range of your bag.

To answer the original question directly:  No, the rating is not accurate.  That’s a fact.

The EN system is simply a CLO measurement, which is referenced to sleeping data to give a limit and comfort rating.  The Limit rating is where the average sized man will be at his comfort limit, sleeping in a tucked position.  The Comfort rating (often incorrectly called the Women’s rating) is where an average sized woman will sleep comfortably in a relaxed position.  The two numbers are usually separated by about 10 degrees F.

The reason that quilt will not be warm down to 20 degrees is simply because it does not insulate the head. And because it is not EN rated, the 20 degree rating is simply made up by the manufacturer.  It cannot be used to compare to other bags, or even be used to give you a close estimate as to the temps you can use it.  But under no circumstances will it keep you warm down to 20 degrees unless you somehow do something additional to insulate the head.  The EN system exposes this huge deficiency in these types of products, which is likely why you never see an EN rating for them.

It is untrue that quilts cannot be tested by EN tests.  I tested the Sierra Designs Backcountry quilt, which has an EN limit rating of 27 degrees.  It achieves this because it has head insulation built in.  If it had been a standard quilt, with no head insulation, its rating would be have been much, much higher.

Complicating all of this is that the EN system uses a pad with an R value of about 5.0.  Most pads are significantly lower than this, so very rarely will you get the warmth you expect from ANY bag, because they are often paired with pads that dramatically reduce the thermal performance, especially with quilts.

If you really want something that will work down to 20 degrees, I would suggest the following:

1.  Assume the EE did their best in estimating the loft required for a 20 degree EN rating, and that the bag is filled to meet that rating (huge assumption, but you will fine enough evidence in these threads that I think it is safe).
2. Pair it with a pad that has an R value of about 5 (Neo Air X-therm, for example)
3. Pair it with some good head insulation, or wear it with your down puffy.
4. Test it.

Following the above, I think there is a very good possibility that you will be warm enough down to 20 degrees, and comfortable down to a little below freezing.  All of this assumes that you can keep that quilt tucked around you and on the mat, which is a huge problem for a lot of folks, so beware.

Good luck out there!!

I want to thank everyone for sharing for sharing your experience and valuable insights. I ended up ordering a Revelation 10F, 10d exterior with stripes and am looking forward to using it as soon as it arrives.

I wasn’t aware that the EN rating assumed a sleeping pad R-value of 5.0.

I tried to Google around and see what various websites say.  Some mention the use of a sleeping pad.  Some say it will effect the “warmth” of the bag.  Backpacker.com states, “The Euro ratings are based on a sleeper wearing one synthetic baselayer (top and bottom) and a hat, and using a closed-cell foam sleeping pad”.  That’s an interesting statement, considering the typical closed cell foam pad, the RidgeRest, has an R value of 2.6

I found this interesting document:

https://outdoorindustry.org/pdf/EN13537Mccullough062209.pdf

which states, “No specification of the ground pad is given, although Annex B states that a mattress with a thermal resistance of 0.85 m2.K/W ±7% should be used when the calibration bags are tested. Research has shown that the pad can make a huge difference in the insulation of a sleeping bag system (McCullough, Zuo, & Huang, 2009).”

I have no idea what 0.85 m2.K/W ±7% mean “in English” for us lay folk.