- Mar 11, 2017 at 5:02 pm #3455941wiiawiwb wiiawiwbBPL Member
I am going to pull the trigger on a Revelation and was hopeful to get feedback on what your real world experience has been with EE’s temperature rating. Is their 20F bag good to 20F?Mar 11, 2017 at 5:23 pm #3455953BudBPL Member
I’m hoping others with experience chime in here, too. I ordered a Revelation APEX 30* as my three-season quilt. I plan on ordering a 50 or 40 Enigma APEX for summer; for winter backpacking, I would double up my quilts for either 10* or 0* warmth.
It’s also tough to say whether or not a bag is or isn’t warm enough due to too many variables between people and the gear owned.Mar 11, 2017 at 5:58 pm #3455965John KlinepeterBPL Member
@johnzotkLocale: Northern Rockies, USA
My 30 degree Enigma is accurately rated for my metabolism; my “furnace” tends to be average to perhaps two degrees cold. I carry a thermometer for verification :)Mar 11, 2017 at 6:22 pm #3455969
If it has a genuine EN rating, then yes.
If it does not … be aware that American ratings do not have a good reputation around the world. One American mfr even admitted he just visually compared his bags with someone else’s and gave a rating on that comparison alone.
As far as EE goes, I simply do not know either way. Ask them?
cheersMar 11, 2017 at 6:28 pm #3455976Matthew ReeseBPL Member
My 20 degree EE quilt recently kept me warm on a 20 degree, (Verified by thermometer), night. I didn’t use the straps. I slept in my base layer. I did wrap my rain quilt around the foot, but that was more to block the wind. That said, there are all kinds of factors to consider, such as psd type, individual differences, sleeping style, head gear, humidity, wind, etc., etc. but I’m satisfied EE’s temp ratings are as accurate as possible.Mar 11, 2017 at 6:30 pm #3455978Cameron MBPL Member
@cameronm-aka-backstrokeLocale: Los Angeles
It’s really pretty simple. The warmth will be determined by the loft thickness of the down, and the amount of dead airspace you choose to warm (how snug it is). Once you know by experience for yourself how much 3″ of loft with a certain snugness works, it is not going vary much across manufacturers.
The quilt vs mummy argument I can’t speak to.Mar 11, 2017 at 7:02 pm #3455987Stuart .BPL Member
“If it has a genuine EN rating, then yes.”
Was the EN standard extended to include quilts recently? I understood it only covered sleeping bags which can be zipped up, with a hood and insulation on the underside.Mar 11, 2017 at 7:13 pm #3455990kevperro .BPL Member
@kevperroLocale: Washington State
Yea… and EN rating is for a dummy on a platform. Since only dead people sleep that way I’m not sure if it is all that meaningful. The amount of loft produced is a reliable way of knowing the insulation value.
No quilt is going to do well on an EN rating but I’ve found mine roughly good for the temp rated. There are so many variables concerning what you find as comfortable that you really should look at how much loft it provides, how it fits and how the thing will actually work in the real world with you rolling around on a pad.Mar 11, 2017 at 7:20 pm #3455992Kentz WillisBPL Member
” Is their 20F bag good to 20F?”
For me, yes.Mar 11, 2017 at 7:50 pm #3456002
Was the EN standard extended to include quilts recently?
Dunno. Doesn’t matter.
If the vendor can honestly quote an EN rating, the exact details do not matter all that much to me. Imho.
The difference between a quilt and a sleeping bag is that one of them has a very thin layer of squashed-flat down under it, while the other does not. Not a lot of difference there.
Both rely heavily on the quality of the mat you are sleeping on. A ‘cold’ mat wil be a cold mat with either a quilt or an SB. On the other hand, a good Down Air Mat (DAM) will give good results with both quilts and SBs.
Yes, the loft is a major factor in the rating for a down cover, but the quality of the down will also matter. 75 mm of Kapok is not the same as 75 mm of best-quality down. And anything which is too narrow is going to be a PITA.
CheersMar 11, 2017 at 10:26 pm #3456045Tim MarshallBPL Member
the EN rating test does require a hood.
We made custom down hoodlums that matched the specs of the quilts and had a few tested. All were r/r 10d/10d and 850DT. From memory the 40* had a ~40* comfort rating and a 32* lower rating, can’t remember the extreme limit. 20* was ~30* comfort and ~21* lower.
We tried to have the results confirmed at a second lab but have been told there is only 1 lab in the world that does this test. That doesn’t make me very happy as some of the test conditions seem wrong to me. If anyone know of labs running this test other than Kansas state please PM me.
If you sleep cold in every bag you’ve ever used you will in ours too. Knowing yourself is the biggest piece of choosing the right temp rating.
-TimMar 11, 2017 at 11:03 pm #3456056
There may be only one lab in the USA (Kansas) which does thr EN test, but I am sure there are a number of them in Europe.
However, I am not sure whether the Euro labs acknowledge the one at Kansas: my memory is that there have been some disputes in years past.
CheersMar 12, 2017 at 8:38 am #3456088Brian GoodeBPL Member
I had to take a light fleece top off and just use my base layers at 26 degrees. I have a 20 degree.
I just recently got a 30 degree because my 20 is too warm at 40 temps.Mar 12, 2017 at 9:05 am #3456089
yeah, EN is a sleeping bag test, not defined for quilts, but you could ad lib for example putting a hood on
Tim’s experience shows the problem with the EN test. Testing every model/size/manufacturer. Too many combinations. Too expensive and unwieldy
It would be better to use the EN test to determine how to calculate the temp rating based on amount of down/synthetic, the style of bag (mummy vs rectangle), etc.
The EN test was developed because different manufacturers did their rating different, some were more conservative, some less. There’s a profit reason for having lower ratings than reasonable. It’s difficult for consumers to make choices…
But if manufacturers all used the same calculation for temp ratings it would solve those problems.
</soapbox>Mar 12, 2017 at 10:10 am #3456092Woubeir (from Europe)BPL Member
But if manufacturers all used the same calculation for temp ratings it would solve those problems.
Hence the reason for the existence of the EN-lab-test: testing done using one calculation by an independent party.Mar 12, 2017 at 10:28 am #3456094
to answer the OPs question …
if you sleep like a “normal man” who aint an old geezah … use a R4-5 pad … have a hood down/synth hood (not just a jacket hood or beanie) … wear some fleece clothes (or other ensemble) … and use the straps properly on a quilt then you MIGHT feel just fine
oh and you should be a fairly windfree area (tent) and make sure you eat a good meal with protein before you sleep
of course there are BPLers who run somewhat warmer and others somewhat cooler … no doubt some folks will never use the straps and only need a merino micro beenie and thong with the quilt … others wear their down jackets to stay warm
however the history of BPL and places like reddit is LITTERED with folks not being able to stay warm in quilts for whatever reason (a simple search will show quite a few this past year alone) … so be aware that a quilt may take more skill than a bag (which you just zip up)
as to en-ratings …. for what they are meant for …. apples to apples comparison they are the best available so far …
to translate that into how warm or cold you would be … well that takes a bit more skill and depends alot on YOU
;)Mar 12, 2017 at 10:43 am #3456098James MarcoBPL Member
@jamesdmarcoLocale: Finger Lakes
Actually, I would call their 20F quilt a bit optimistic.
1) It assumes a hood. (I got mine long so I could cover my head. Often my hat is not dry enough after hiking all day to work for sleeping, too. And, being somewhat…hmmmph without hair shall I say…I need a head covering anyway.) Placing a water bottle, canister, down in the bottom works pretty well, too.
2) Narrow quilts allow some cold drafts to get to your body, especially traveling UL (tarp instead of tent.) Also, at near the limit, you can tuck part of it around your body fairly tightly. Again, allowing as much down as possible to cover most parts of your body. Often on the windward side, I fold it under me to eliminate drafts from that direction.
3) Your pad will NOT have full coverage by the down, unless you get a wide. Not recommended (since you place the quilt on the ground sheet,) but you can poke the bottom half of an exlite into the foot box allowing you to warm it up in the foot area a bit. A good pad, or, multiple pads is required at 20F. An xlite will not work very well alone. I typically use a 3/4″ nightlite CCF pad over it to sleep on. Or, if it is not wet, scrape up a mound of forest duff under your pad. Even snow is better than ice, sand or rock.
Anyway, I have been out at 25F with the 20F quilt. I did have long johns, and long socks on, and was comfortable. But, I wouldn’t want to take it any further without a better pad (I was using the xlite and nightlite.)
In most bags you sleep on the down. Except your knees, hips, and shoulders, down does some good. Even an extra 1/4″ of compressed insulation is better than none. So, bags are just inherently warmer. But, quilts are a LOT lighter. You really need to balance the two to be comfortable as a UL hiker. To save the extra half pound in weight, I think it is.Mar 12, 2017 at 10:52 am #3456099Matt BBPL Member
To echo Tim and others – the bag’s rating is one of many factors that determine your comfort.
To attempt to answer your question – in my experience, probably. I’ve been comfortable in my 10°F Enigma in 10-15°F temps. I’m a pretty cold sleeper. For context I was in base layers and a light fleece hat, under a small tarp, on a full-length X-Lite pad.Mar 12, 2017 at 10:59 am #3456100
interestingly enough quilts are not always alot lighter … it really depends on the bag and the quilt and the rating …
for example my WM highlite is 850 fill and weights ~ 16-17 oz with the stuff sack …
the 40F EE 850 quilt tim mentions weights ~ 15-16 oz with the stuff sack, straps and a light hoodlum, especially with a wide quilt …
they are both en-rate to 32F lower limit …
basically a 1 oz difference …
of course bags/quilts with more down the gap increases … but probably not as much as folks think especially if we allow for the straps, wide quilts (to prevent drafts) and proper head insulation
the biggest thing driving the quilt craze is a desire to sleep like you would at home (of course when it gets cold many folks need to use the straps and a proper hood) … and PRICE …
if it werent for EE and other cottage companies lower prices, quilts would not be as popular
;)Mar 12, 2017 at 11:16 am #3456107wiiawiwb wiiawiwbBPL Member
I was out last year in 18F weather in my -5F WM bag and was toasty. That bag is getting on in years and is a tad heavy. I no longer go out in weather below 15F unless a unpredictable storm rolls in. It sounds like the 20F would get me through 20F weather with a merino wool base layer and down jacket.
Maybe it makes more sense to get the 10F Revelation, and give myself some room to spare, with only a ~3oz penalty.Mar 12, 2017 at 11:54 am #3456111
I agree EN rating is best
but, especially for smaller manufacturers it’s just too expensive. If you make a number of models in a number of sizes there are many test required. Each test is very expensive.
you could get pretty close using a calculation based on the amount of insulation an type of bag
the problem is when one manufacturer rates, for example, 5 oz/yd2 synthetic at 30 F, another 40F. The consumer might get a bag that’s not warm enough. A manufacturer that exaggerates will be financially rewarded.
You could do a number of tests and see just how close you can get with a calculationMar 12, 2017 at 12:24 pm #3456115
The insulation is only one factor
For example you can have a well fitting 650 fill jacket thats warmer than an ill fitting 850 fill one …. Same with bags
Interestingly enough marmot boosted the en-ratings of some of their bags significantly by redesigning the head and foot boxes while DECREASING the fill power from 850 to 800 fill with the same amount of down
Are they gamming the system? … Or are head and feet major points of head loss?
;)Mar 12, 2017 at 12:41 pm #3456118Woubeir (from Europe)BPL Member
True, but who will verify your result ? If I say that my result is based on the accepted formula and someone says the result is false but can’t deliver any proof for that, who would you believe to be the most accurate ?
Also don’t forget that norms are there to protect the buyer-side. Yes, it may be costly to test your whole range, but that is not the goal of the norm. And there is no obligation to test according to EN13537 (or the follow-up EN23537) so in the EU some manufacturers do not test acoording to the norm (and stil sel well) or test some bags according to the norm and extrapolate the results to get results for their other bags.Mar 12, 2017 at 12:58 pm #3456123
The rating agency could specify how to calculate. And if they redesigned the head and foot boxes they could do an EN test to verify
Extrapolating the results to get ratings for other bags is what I’m talking about
Take the EN ratings of a bunch of bags, determine a calculation based on that, see how much difference there is between the calculation and the actual test. If the difference is small enough then the concept is verified.Mar 12, 2017 at 2:01 pm #3456139Tim MarshallBPL Member
The lab that does the test will not provide any formula or any specification to meet to hit the temp rating you want. They will just test what you send them.
Roger, I’m glad you’re confident that tons of testing labs exist, I’m sure you’ve never actually looked for one. I have tried to find additional testing parties but I can not. So please tell me where to find all these facilities.
Ive sent quilt to idfl to be tested, they sent them to Kansas state without telling me. They told us the same is true for idfl worldwide.
The people at Kansas state are great. I’m just uncomfortable not being able to confirm the results. Why is the right hand always colder than the left? Other similar questions.
When mentioning WM temp ratings someone seemed to claim they were EN rated. I can’t find that info on their site, can that be confirmed?
i love the idea of consistent temp ratings across all manufactures. The EN test might not be perfect but it works. I just feel it is important to have the tests done by multiple labs instead of just having one place that we all go by. Having just one tester goes back to a system that can’t be verified which I don’t like.
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