If using Phil Tents, how many and what kind of stakes?

In 2016 we purchased the steel stakes they had on site for $0.50 each or so.  They bent in the rocks, got lost and I think 1/2 made it home to be used in the troop. lol.

8 are needed for each tent, we bought 10 for each tent and I think another 8 for the tarp.  Of course on the third night two scouts were arguing who left the stakes at the last site.  That used up the extra two from everyone. And some were so mangled, I have no idea how they were still being used.  A bit of training on how to use rocks as anchor points it always a good idea.
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I don’t think the mini ground hogs will have enough holding power. Take the MSR groundhogs or equivalent. The ground in the staffed camps and the backcountry camps is HIGHLY impacted and compacted by humans.

For the dining tarp in A frame configuration, I would recommend at least 8 if not 10 stakes: one at each corner, one on the midpoint on each side, and to anchor the each end of the roof peak, two guylines attached to each hiking pole, viz two stakes at each end. Some folks run the line through the peak apex of the A frame and get by with one stake at each end but you then have to constantly check the anchor point.

Since the tents are “self standing” you could probably get by with 4 or 6 stakes but the more you stake out the tent fly, the better control you will have over condensation.  By tightening the fly very taut, you increase the air space between the inner and outer tents.

@Jason T

Were those missing stakes left in Carson Meadows per chance?

We found a pile of 8 of them setting up camp there.

We used aluminum gutter spikes. Five per scout using a Thunder Ridge Tent. Thick enouph that they didn’t bend on the rocky soil.

The soil and ground in Philmont campsites is very hard packed and rocky, getting any stake in is a challenge.

The sharp three sided tops of the MSR Groundhogs hurt (cut) your hand trying to push them in. Using rocks to pound them in is discouraged by Philmont because of the number of smashed fingers that will eventually happen over ten days.

Aluminum gutter nails are fine as they have a flat top and any stake in that hard ground will hold your tent.

I prefer the Shepard hook tops as they hurts less and you can twist them back and forth as you push them in. Kelty Nobendum are a little tougher than the plain aluminum ones so don’t bend so easily and the bright yellow color makes them easier to find (not lose).

Philmont tents require 8 stakes and the dining fly requires 10 stakes. Have a couple of extras each for Scout attrition and you can usually find a couple in every camp.

@ David. Concerning insertion of MSR Groundhogs, when the ground is very hard, I usually push them in with my foot or find a rock.  For removal, I pull on the loop of cord.  I bent a number of my expensive titanium sheperd hooks at Philmont. A few years ago, BPL published some test results showing that stakes like the groundhogs stayed in the ground longer in the face of high force on the guyline.

Bruce, no doubt the MSR Groundhogs are the toughest states around by design. If you can push them in with your boot or camp shoe they are tough and will not bend. Sometimes I wind-up pushing in my Nobendums with my shoe. So I give your Groundhogs top pick. Thanks for your counterpoint.

I like my mini ground hogs, but do wish they rounded the tops of the stakes. Pushing hard my hand is painful and I worry about putting a hole in my trail runners. A rock can work, but it would be nice to not need that.

I can see how Groundhogs could cut a hole in camp shoes or trail runner soles and I know how they hurt or punch a hole in your palm.

Many years ago our Ranger advised us to find a small flat rock and hold it in your palm to push stakes in rather than pounding them with rocks and eventually smashing a finger or two. Haven’t heard that Ranger advice since.

To push GroundHogs (and Wallie World cheap equivalents) into hard ground, cut off the top off a plastic pop bottle, leave the bright red cap on, cut up then fold flat a small strip bottle plastic wall, and insert into the funnel.  This gives a durable surface to press the stakes into the ground. One funnel per tent.

If treated gently, the cap will be your spare for a water bottle or with 6 small holes, your shower.

I’m having a hard time picturing this with a funnel.  Can you post a photo?

We also use gutter spikes – much less expensive to buy them in bulk than the 10-packs at the big box store.  I think we got a box of 250 for $100 or so.  As has been said, Philmont is hard and rocky so they do bend but they also are easy to straighten.

Similar to what @sweerek described – we made a little tool to help push them in.  Use a piece of 1/2 PVC about an inch long with a “cap”, or just use a 1/2 PVC “T”.

I like the PVC pipe cap idea. Maybe drill a small hole in the side to attach a string and tether it to your stake bag.

I made this exact item to push in my groundhogs and it work great:

http://blog.gossamergear.com/homemade-peg-pusher

I had previously used some rock near the campsite, but after my hand slipped off giving me a nasty cut I knew I needed to find something better.  You can also use this peg pusher on some J or T stakes depending on the angle.

I made this exact item to push in my groundhogs and it work great:

Great idea!  I wish MSR would redesign the stakes so that they don’t inflict pain on a bare hand.

I rather doubt MSR actually ‘designed’ their stakes. They most likely just bought a job lot from China. Then got the supplier to transfer them to the Asian tent mfr for packaging.
Some Chinese stakes have rounded top corners; some appear to be simply guillotined off.

Cheers