Idea for new type of critter/bear food protection

Nm, probably not feasible.

Maybe I’m not visualizing it right, but most bears I’ve known would snatch that out of the ground with one swipe.  Those guys toss boulders around like pebbles…how are you going to move “rocks” big enough to thwart a hungry bear?

If you have a sketch or diagram, that would be very helpful as it’s hard to visualize. It’s always enjoyable to hear ideas for the latest and greatest bear resistant container.

Here’s another idea based loosely on your use of heavy fabric for the body of the container. How about making a pressurized, thick and strong 3 foot diameter exercise ball with a seal-able round lid or other opening? Some kind of tough non-woven composite of rubber and Dyneema maybe? You put your food inside, seal the opening, blow it up and tuck it away in the trees. It’s too big for a bear’s jaw and too strong to be burst by a bear’s body weight.

This sounds very Project Grizzly to me ;)
https://www.nfb.ca/film/project_grizzly/

Seriously though, what stops the bear from removing the rocks? A bear falling on a pile of rocks would probably remove most of them.

Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I think that without special anchoring stakes that would add complexity and too much weight, this idea probably wouldn’t work.

I suppose you could anchor it to some trees  (I’d like to see even a Grizzly pull out 4 trees simultaneously…) plus ground, but that would only work if you have access to trees.

That Grizzly project was confusing…  At first I thought it was a spoof, but then I thought, “maybe this is for real???”  Goodness, what obsession/emotional attachment will lead one too.

In this iteration, 4 ground stakes would be used, but only to hold the structure up while you attach to trees. One cord per bottom corner to trees and one cord per upper part of structure

Obviously wouldn’t work without trees.  Here’s a pic:

Lester that may work, but I wouldn’t know how to make/implement same.

I’m thinking the semi open nature of the main part of structure is probably not a good idea, as it would give animals too much leverage with claws and teeth to pull/rip, and potentially mice and other small critters could find their way through.

Instead, for the main part of the structure, have 1 layer of 420D Robic, backed (on the inside) by some highly oriented UHMWPE cord (1000lb+ type stuff)–using much less than previous iteration. The peak and bottom would still be two layers of Robic to hold in the cord, and to provide strong back up to guy tie outs, which would be the Venom UHMWPE webbing.  Use Titanium LoopAlien+UHMWPE cord for the adjustable guy outs.

Since I erased my earlier post somewhat hastily, I will outline the support pole structure again:

Support pole would be a composite of thick bamboo pole, commercial carbon fiber (or similar equivalent), high quality epoxy doped/blended with carbonized highly crystalline nanocellulose, high density EVA foam, and expanding spray foam for the core of the bamboo.

To the bottom of the bamboo/C.F. etc composite pole, in the middle would be a titanium tent stake affixed halfway within the bamboo pole (by both the expanding spray foam and carbon fiber/epoxy doped with carbonized CNC).

The top of the pole, after being wrapped with carbon fiber/epoxy doped with carbonized CNC, would be reinforced with some high density EVA foam, with some extra carbon fiber/CNC doped epoxy around same.

This is so that if a bear decides to chomp on the peak, the pole structure would be able to take A LOT of force without cracking (or without crumpling should it decide to step on it).

To make it even harder to chomp on, the peak would probably have a layer of the carbonized CNC doped epoxy on it. This of course would make it much more rigid, but since it’s such a small area, volume in the pack won’t be a problem since the rest will still be collapsible.  You could even put it in the pack, upside down, and use it as sort of a stuff sack/liner for those items that need to be protected from water.

If trees are unavailable, large boulders could also be used to attach the guy outs too, but you run some risk of potential movement of the structure over connecting to trees. However, with 4 separate points and 8 connecting lines to 4 large boulders, I highly doubt that even a Grizzly would be able to move all 4 boulders at the same time by trying to move the structure within the middle.  Grizzlies are certainly powerful and intelligent, but not that powerful and intelligent.

Advantages over canister including more volume of food storage but less volume in the pack, per similar weight. Disadvantage–set up time.  It would sort of be like setting up another separate shelter

Advantages over Ursack type protection is that it provides inherent and complete crush and slobber protection.  Disadvantage, more weight and more set up time.

Now, if you don’t have any trees or large boulders, you would be up the creek without a paddle, SOL. But otherwise, seems doable. Whaddya think, should I try building a prototype?  How should I test same? Put it in neutral and roll a small car into it?  From a high height, drop a large rock or heavy weight onto it?

(Said in Derek Zoolander voice), “What is this, a pyramid tent for marmots?!!”

So how is this better than a canister?

Already outlined that, but to reiterate:

“Advantages over canister including more volume of food storage but less volume in the pack, per similar weight. Disadvantage–set up time.  It would sort of be like setting up another separate shelter”

How do you keep the bear from biting through your guy lines?  Or just breaking them?

How do you keep the bear from digging a little hole next to your teepee and reaching under to grab the goodies?

I think this could work.  If we fasten one of these conical objects to every bear’s head like a hat, the bears will look so silly that they will feel too embarrassed to come into campsites to steal food in case somebody sees them.

“How do you keep the bear from biting through your guy lines?  Or just breaking them?”

I suggest watching video recorded testing of Ursacks, and that will answer all the above. Just 1/8″ highly oriented UHMWPE cord has a breaking strength of 2500 pounds.  I”ve seen videos of the Ursack testing, and I can tell you no matter how much those Grizzly’s pull and rip at both the Ursack and thus also the cord that connects it to the tree, it doesn’t break or rip either the Ursack nor the cord holding it to the tree (course, the food inside is mangled beyond recognition).

The Ursack fibers/yarns, btw, are not anywhere near 1/8″ thick. They are strengthened vs singe cords because they are in a sewn, woven (and I think maybe also bonded) matrix which distributes load, but it’s not like they are using boat hauling line to hold it to the tree.  I suppose if one is really worried, they could go up to 1/2″ cord, which not even a Grizzly could hope to break unless it was running full hilt into without slowing down previously at all (like doing 35mph and not seeing the cord somehow. That could possibly even break the 1/2″ cord, but not at all likely in the situation we are talking about).

Also, bears do not have particularly sharp teeth to begin with (they rely more on a bone crushing jaw power), and that kind of material is not only ridiculous strong tensile strength wise, but it also has very high abrasion and cut resistance while having little friction coefficient, which is why serious cut protective clothing is made out of it. To be used in connection with things MUCH sharper than bear teeth.

Also, why would the bear even go for the cord?  The cord would not be in it’s way, and it would go straight for the smell of the food, of which the cord is not directly connected to in that sense.

“How do you keep the bear from digging a little hole next to your teepee and reaching under to grab the goodies?”

That is a better question, and one I’ve wondered about myself. It is possible for this to happen, but we can make it really hard on the bear or critter, by using that handy dandy 3 ft or so pole in the middle.  I assume most people are going to have their food in some kind of bag, like maybe a silnylon bag.  Tie and keep it close to the pole in the middle and keep it off the ground.  This would make it much harder for the bear to get to it, and it would have to work very hard to get at it.   Keep in mind that the center pole structure will literally be staked into the ground itself, and with 8 guy out lines to 4 trees or the like, it’s not going anywhere unless the bear digs completely under the whole thing, which would be hard to do, since the outer bottom perimeter of the fabric is further out and will block it from getting towards the center.

But yes, that is it’s main potential weakness. However, I don’t think it would be likely, possible yes, likely no. A mouse, rat, marmot or the like would be more worrisome in that sense than a bear. I believe in redundancy when it comes to these things, I personally would probably use one of my extra dyneema cut protective sleeves and put the food in there, so the tiny critters also can’t get to it even if they get inside (which IS much more likely than a large animal like a bear, wolf, or cougar getting to it).

Of course it would need to be tested extensively.  Both torture tested in various different ways, and then actually put up against Grizzly’s.  I appreciate the honest skeptical feedback minus snark and sarcasm, so thank you Todd.

Well, I’m going to build a working prototype, and put it through hell and back, and see how it holds up. And when it shows it holds up very well like I know it will, and I sell enough that I can retire early. With my new free time, then I will set my sights on beating the male AT speed record and actually do it.

Just kidding, I don’t have near enough ego to even want to try to, to begin with.  I go out to into nature to enjoy/appreciate same.

It’s a little odd that you’ve hijacked your own thread to head off on a tangent where you explain how others are enjoying the wilderness incorrectly.

Anyway Justin, I really wish I could give a constructive comment on your design rather than joking about it.   But it just seems ridiculous to me.   It appears to be an open-bottomed teepee structure secured by stakes and horizontal guy lines attached to trees?   Unless these stakes are two feet long and set into concrete, how would this arrangement prevent a bear from just ripping it out of the ground?   The horizontal guy lines might stop the bear absconding with the teepee, but they wouldn’t stop the bear lifting it up.

Your benchmark is the Bearikade Expedition that weighs just over 2lb, or an Ursack that weighs less.

Why use a non-enclosed structure?  It seems a fundamentally misguided idea, since any weight saved from an open bottom creates a requirement for a complicated and surely far heavier arrangement to fix it in an upright position in a bearproof manner on any terrain that you might encounter;  and even if you could make that work, doesn’t address the problem of the bear just digging a hole to get under it.   Surely it’s a much simpler engineering solution to use an enclosed structure – something that the bear can’t easily grasp to move it (the Bearikade) or something that you tie off but doesn’t need to be in a fixed position (the Ursack).

I don’t think we’ll find a better fundamental design than a fully-enclosed canister or bag, any improvement is likely to come from high tech super-strong lightweight materials as they become commercialized.

In spite of my facetious comments earlier, I don’t really know for certain whether or not such a set up would work, hence the testing that would need to be done.

And as I outlined to Todd, a large animal like a bear would have to work really hard to get to food inside if it’s tied to/close to the pole and hanging off the ground. Possible yes, likely, maybe not so much. When animals dig, they typically try to get their heads into/towards where they are digging. That big ole Grizz head will be blocked by the fabric of the outside bottom perimeter.  It would have to dig deep down, and then up. And have fun blindly swiping at a slippery silnylon bag that’s tied to a pole that is anchored extremely well.

I would be much more concerned with small critters getting into it.  But that’s where my 2 oz or so, extra dyneema sleeve would come in handy. Have fun trying to chew through that stuff little guys.  Better yet, I have copper mesh tubular material, and for whatever reason, animals can’t stand the feel/taste of copper metal. It’s often used to line or stuff known or suspected entry ways that mice and other critters get in, and from what I’ve read of many reviews, it works very well for that.

I already have all the materials to make a prototype on hand. No extra money to spend.  I just need to make some more carbonized CNC, and do the work of cutting and sanding some bamboo, etc.

In any case, I also have an idea for a canister type design that I think I can get a bit lighter and cheaper than current, that I also would like to try out. Carbonized CNC I suspect, will be a bit of a game changer in the composites field in combination with epoxy, carbon fiber, and the like. If it’s anything like it’s raw form, then the most ideal ratio is about 2% per weight.

Up until recently, I’ve been focusing a lot on battery stuff, but I’ve come to the recent realization that this is going to take a long time in order to test it properly before even thinking about bringing it to market, because long term capacitance efficiency, well, just takes awhile to test, even if constantly charging/discharging cycling (and I”m also waiting on the help of an electrical engineer acquaintance who is currently rather busy).  Hence, I’m not putting it aside so much, as not devoting all my time and energy to it like before. There is no real rush, and would prefer to take my time than put out a crap design.  So in the future, I will be devoting more time and energy towards backpacking design and equipment.

Came up with a simple and light solution to the issue of at least larger animals potentially digging up and under it.

Each bottom, perimeter panel of fabric will have 4 lines of beefy UHMWPE cord in a triangle, connected at the end, go towards the middle of the pole, so that when that gets staked in, the various cords will also be staked in. Line up the four center loops in the very middle.

So basically the bottom will be lined with very strong cord. This will make it a bit harder to set up, but it would help to prevent larger animals from getting up and under it, even if they dig a lot.

Little critters would still be able to get in there by digging, but again, there are a couple of different lightweight weight options to prevent them from getting to the food.  Whether putting the food in a all dyneema cut protective sleeves, or putting copper tubular mesh around a the bag the food is in.