I Want a Carry Weight Ethanol vs Canister Sanity Check (cause I’m being dense)

I think its about 2 oz alcohol to boil 2 cups water roughly. Very roughly. I’m just really happy with alcohol cuz there’s no throwing away canisters in the landfill. Those canisters just feel like the ultimate non-leave no trace dynamic out there.

I get a good boil using 3/4 oz(by volume) alcohol  for ~18 oz boil. Doing rough math I get upper 20’s by weight.  Remember alcohol has a lower density. In your scenario it is entirely possible that alcohol  fuel container plus fuel can weigh about the same or even a little more at the beginning. Using alcohol the weight would drop much faster and the average as well as the end weight of cook system could less than using canisters. For a weekend trip alcohol is lighter is almost all cases even with a partially empty canister.  Hikin Jim did a write on this a while back that goes into much greater detail. https://adventuresinstoving.blogspot.com/2017/02/gas-vs-alcohol-which-is-lighter.html

For 3-4 person-days, it should be lighter to use alcohol.

I don’t fret the landfilling of canisters, since I only buy 450-gram canisters and refill my small ones from that.  It’s about 0.032% of my landfill waste.  Or I repurpose the canister for the marine air horn on the boat.  My ethanol comes in a steel can as well (although somewhat less steel per fuel).

I think the bigger issue is what style you prefer:

A) set it and and forget it.  i.e. learn your alcohol set-up really well, put a carefully measured amount in for the volume of water and then putter around for 8-10 minutes setting up your tent, or doing whatever, and return to hot water in the pot,  or

B) hover over the stove for less time – 1 to 2 minutes – and turn the canister stove off as soon as the water is nearly a boil.

I tend to do B on the trail, although I value the rice maker and microwave at home because once I’ve set the timer (measured out the alcohol), it is largely “set it and forget it” like option A.

I guess the difference for me is that at home, I’ve got 4 or 5 dinner courses cooking at once and they all remind me of the time “Dad burned the quesadillas” while on the trail, there’s only one flame at a time.

Best way to find out is to test your own stove system and find out its (average) fuel consumption.  If, in standard conditions its consistently taking more than 20ml of ethanol to boil 2 cups, then get another setup as it’s really not efficient and you are using/carrying more fuel than necessary.(3/4oz is about right, 2oz is insanity!)

Then, when you know you are using, and have done similar tests for your gas setup, you can compare.

Most truthful comparison is a spreadsheet  with day by day weights of what is carried/used each day.   You will find that on any short trip alcohol is the lighter option.   On a longer trip, alcohol carried is heavier than equivalent gas for the first few days, but then as consumption lightens the fuel, alcohol becomes the lighter system.  Basically, over most trips, weight carried, alcohol is always the lightest option most days, due to the gas canister or need for carrying more than one canister.

I have pointed out several time that by using a different stove/windscreen /pot size/ pot material/ water temperature the results can be drammaticaly different.

Pretty much like asking how much gas you need to drive from los Angeles to New York not knowing what vehicle /road/driving style you will use.

So as Mole suggested, you need to test what YOU have.

I figure an oz per person per day of isobutane. This does not include the canister weight. I use lots of fuel for cooking and drinks, even mid day meals sometimes. One time out of 5 this is not enough, so carry an extra oz or 2.

I do have a very good windscreen which wraps around the pot. I run the stove at low settings, which seems to be more efficient.

HEET is 0.82oz per fluid ounce or 0.791 per milliliter  so I have calculated that with my Caldera Cone,  I use 0.43oz per boil and I only boil once a day (for dinner).  To make it a round number I just say I use 0.5oz of HEET per day and on top of that I generally add an ounce of fuel as contingency.

It almost never works out better for me to use a canister stove, but I did on a 14 day unsupported trip.

While these numbers in the below chart aren’t actual data from a trip, they’re within the realm of reason.  Therefore, allocating 25 g of fuel per day isn’t unreasonable until you get a better sense of how much your cooking actually requires.  Twenty five is a fairly easy number to work with, and the most commonly used canisters contain about 100, 200, and 450 grams of fuel. Twenty five divides easily into 100, 200, and 450.

NOTE:  For your first several trips, if you’re new to backpacking, assume you’ll need more fuel rather than less until you get a feel for how much fuel your style of cooking actually requires.

OR

Take a look at this site as I think it will also aid you in your dilemma:

https://www.mercatorgear.com/index.php/canister-calculator

Excellent – your responses are about what I expected, along with good info on what you folks actually expect to use, so I’ll call this a win.  Quite some time ago I did a bunch of burns and weighing the amount of fuel used on each of my stoves: Svea 123, M1942 MOD, Coleman 400A, Optimus Crux, then compiled spreadsheets and keep cross-checking with info like posted above. This really helps with real world variability.

I didn’t want to invest (time and money) into alcohol again unless I was pretty sure there would be a really significant weight savings, and the answer I keep coming up with: not huge, kinda a gray area, start the same, end with less, and the tightness of the system, experience, discipline,  are huge factors for consistent efficiency.

This came up with carrying 2 canisters, same as I had, so thank you Ken:

https://www.mercatorgear.com/index.php/canister-calculator

As Erica said, canister stove at an efficient setting. Good windscreen no matter what stove fuel setup. And from Adventures in Stoving along with the ton of other posts here about alcohol stoves, seems I would benefit from a really tight integrated stove/shield/pot system. And Brad’s response, “almost never works out better for me to use a canister stove…”  Almost.  And Dave, “I think the bigger issue is what style you prefer…”

Winter camping or using a alcohol backup to wood are advantages I hadn’t considered. The weight savings over my brassies is worth thinking about. Speaking of the white gas stoves, I use a mix of alcohol and just enough Coleman fuel so I can see the primer flame. That would solve on thing about alcohol stoves I didn’t like: cannot see or hear the flame. Granted there will be a little soot on my pot, but it’s easy to clean.

Carrying a UL wood stove and being able to drop in a alcohol burner might be good for some wet weather.

You can recycle gas canisters. Make use it is empty, completely. Then use a can opener on the bottom to puncture the canister. Throw into the recycling bin.

That what I’ve been doing for the last several years. I do have friends that refill them though like David does. That’s a better option. Then you just recycle the larger ones.

I’ve found the alcohol vs canister weight comparisons pretty much a wash. For me, there are other areas of more concerns.

Add salt to make a yellow flame

I’ve found that alcohol stoves lose their efficiency when temperatures drop and/or altitude increases. This is important when melting snow in the mountains during winter conditions. I did a side-by-side test with alcohol stoves and a fuel canister employing a “Moulder Strip”. The results were that I needed significantly more alcohol than for use in summer conditions, and the snow melting was considerably slower.  The Moulder Strip setup wasn’t at all affected by such conditions. The extra alcohol needed raised the overall weight of the alcohol system made that system heavier than my canister fuel setup, and the snow melt was much slower.

Fuel efficiency is fuel efficiency: assuming that you have a well designed stove/cooking system.  With benchtop testing:

A good alcohol Cooking System will boil 2 cups of 70 F water using about 15 ml (about 12 grams)

A good isobutane Cooking System will boil 2 cups of 70 F water using about 6-7 grams of fuel

Generically, 1 gram of isobutane is about the same as 2 grams of alcohol.  People use to select alcohol as the system weight is lower (stove, windscreen & fuel bottle).  Newer Cooking systems are closing the gap (JetBoil, BRS 3000T +windscreen & empty canister weight).  With isobutane, you always carry the burden of the steel cannister (4 oz. or less for a small can).  Depending on your Cooking System that is independent of temperature or altitude.  What this comes down to is “how much fuel are you using for how long?’  In fair weather camping, the alcohol/isobutane tradeoff in system weight for a single user has been about about 5-7 days.

Now if youare melting snow, it requires more energy so that means more fuel.  That 5-7 dyas probably dorps down to 2-3 days.  Energy is energy, it doesn’t matter what kind of fuel.

If you boil a lot of water or cook a lot of food, the tradeoff point drops as well.   2 people, the cross over point dorps to 3-4 days.

My 2 cents.

I went down the rabbit hole of “most efficient” and “lightest over X days” too. Then I realized there’s a lot more to choosing a stove and fuel.

Other factors include (many already mentioned):
• Boiling water vs cooking more complex meals
• Fuel availability where you live and resupply
• Fuel and stove safety
• Wacko stove rules from land management agencies
• How many people you cook for
• Requirements to melt snow for water or boil drinking water
• Fiddle factor in setup and operation
• Aesthetics
• Wind resistance
• Idiotproofness
• One stove to rule them all vs selecting the perfect stove for this trip
• Stove and fuel price
• Can you take the stove or fuel on a commercial flight
• Stove and fuel volume (for people with teeny packs)
• Environmental impact (an even deeper rabbit hole)
• Fuel toxicity
• Carbon monoxide production

And probably a bunch more that escape me right now. Some of these might not matter to you, some might be critical.

The good news is – commercial stoves are relatively cheap, and MYOG stoves even cheaper. If you decide that a particular stove and fuel combo isn’t working for you, it’s relatively easy to switch. Gear Swap is your friend.

Pick something reasonable, grow to love or hate it after several trips, then keep it or switch. There is some fun in the trying and learning.

— Rex

I decided to go with alcohol stove, at least to try it for the season, get used to it and see if it becomes a viable alternative. As I understand it it’s a good stove to use when winter camping in the snow, and I’m usually not out when it’s colder than 20°.

I think combining this with a woodstove for my solo trips could be a significant weight saver, but even if it’s not, there may be other advantages that I find. I guess I won’t know till I really give it a college try.

Alcohol is nice n quiet.

Gas is nice n noisy.

Pick ur poison.

Here in Cali- fire-afornia it’s been required to be the latter.  I absolutely love the alky cat can with an 1 1/4” riser.  Puts the other ten stoves I have to shame

Some of the dinners I carry often are Backpackers Pantry Thai and Backpackers Pantry Lasagna.
These are not very good if you just add boiling water.

Here’s how I cook them:
Bring water to a simmer or boil.
Add the diner and stir
Bring to a boil
Let set 10 minutes or so

Heat to simmer again
(add water, preferably boiling, if I screwed up and didn’t start with enough)
Heat to simmer or boiling again.
Let it sit another 5 minutes or so

Reheat if (usually) necessary
Add olive oil and serve

That’s usually 3X I light the stove.
Maybe another 1x or 2x for the hot drink and miso soup

Easier with a cannister stove.
Guess that is my fiddle factor.
I do like cooking.

Anecdotally… it does seem more efficient of fuel when cooking for 2 or 3…

FYI – I have done a lot of measurements and cooking with a remote isobutane stove.  I can boil 2 cups of water using about 6-7 grams of fuel.  I can turn it down to a low simmer and or dry bake and use 9 grams of fuel in 45 minutes.  A good Cooking System along with practice can go a long way in saving fuel.  My 2 cents

I SECOND what Jon has just said as I have duplicated his results with a KOVEA Spider!!

Well that chimes well with the gas needed being half the weight of alcohol. (in efficient systems)

6g of gas = 15ml (12g) of ethanol

For a 500ml boil,  for a cartridge stove I usually plan for 8g gas and for a caldera cone setup I  plan 20ml (16g) of alcohol or 12g of hexamine(esbit). Leaves a little wriggle room.

Being proficient at alcohol stove use (and construction) lets you fly in, buy $3 of HEET and $0.89 of cat food, eat the cat food, and make a very light stove using a sharp rock.

So you’re saying to be stoveless until the cat food is gone then make a stove to enjoy warm food.?

Can someone in Alaska please check on David? It’s been a long winter and…